[bakerg (Guest)]

This is a take off of a previous thread plus Nicklaus's article in Links.  Are there any par 5's that are unreachable today for the pros?

It will be interesting to see if Baltusral's 17th will hold up in the PGA in '05.  

I was trying to think of what other Par 5's can't be hit in two and I am drawing a blank.  I thought the 600 yard + hole at Southern Hill was not reachable but Sergio eagled it in a practice round so that is out.  Can anyone come up with one that is untouchable?

[Mike Benham]

16th at Olympic Lake.  I believe that John Daly tried teeing up a driver in the fairway (practice round of course) and came close.

Since we have debated whether or not the 16th is a double-dogleg (the left-left variety), maybe this allows it to fall into a different category ...  

[Slider]

The ninth hole of Secession Golf Club on Gibbes Island is 615 from the tips.  There has never been a true "tour event" there, however numerous pros have played it and no one has reached it in two.

The predominant wind is always in your face making it that much more difficult.

[Tom Doak]

The original article on the subject came out in the spring of 1982 -- I remember because it was the second article I wrote for GOLF Magazine.  The article was George Peper's idea -- he loved the title "The Untouchables," and we could use it without fear because Oscar Fraley (who wrote the book about Eliot Ness) was a contributing editor to GOLF at the time.  But they needed someone who would take the time to research the article and write it for scale, and I had the time.

There were about twenty par fives which hadn't been reached at the time.  I'm sure that most of them have been today, although I believe the 7th at Pine Valley is still unbesmirched, and I'd guess there are others.  There are probably also a lot of newer golf holes which haven't been reached in two yet (I haven't heard of anyone holding the 11th green at Stonewall, for example), but if you brought an entire field of Tour pros out to practice on them, not many would survive the onslaught.

Which is just as well.  The ideal long par five is one which is stupid to go for, but which offers just enough hope so that long hitters will get themselves in trouble.  The players who fare best on long par fives are usually straight hitters who hit it in the fairway twice, and then a short iron onto the green.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Par 5's unreachable by the pros?  I'm no longer familiar with that term......

[TEPaul]

The 7th at Pine Valley has been reached and distance-wise it definitely is. Just as an indication of how distance-wise it can be, I believe recently Ty Tryon hit a drive to the end of the fairway and on being told the hole was considered fairly unreachable went at it with a 3 wood, pulled it some and was in the left greenside bunker hole high--so it's reachable. And I've also heard that quite a few years ago Art Selinger hit a second shot over #7.

[John Foley]

Oak Hill East #13 was un-reachable as of the Ryder Cup in '95.

It plays to around 600 yards, however a creek crosses the FW at around 300 yards. Everyone in the Ryder Cup played it as a three shotter. In the Open in '89, the only one I remeber trying to fly the creek was Calc and he failed. I don't know about Keuhne when he won the Amatuer there a few years ago.

At this years PGA, I would expect it to at least be attempted.

I also recall Daly getting home in two at 17th at Baltusrol when the Open was there last.

[Bob_Huntley]

Olympic 16th? Ask Gib. I believe  Bobby Jones hit in two in 1929.

Talking of Jones, length and the ball, Sid Matthew, who is the source of most Jones lore, told me the following. When Jones won the US Open in 1926 at Scioto, his drive on the 18th hole of the final round measured 340 yards. Admittedly the fairways were hard and fast, but this was with hickories and a Spalding Black Dot .  He changed balls after five or six holes as the rubber brands snapped and distorted the ball's surface.

From goose down to gutta percha to elastic bands to polymers, technology has always been the bane of purists and will always be thus.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

TPaul,

What percentage of players do you think will go for Number 2 (new tee) and 4 at Merion during stroke play at the US Amateur. With OB on the right at 2 and uphill, it seems risk/reward it is too much risk. With Cobbs Creek and a blind shot into 4, it too seems risky. So early in the round, why take a chance ?

[THuckaby2]

Olympic 16th? Ask Gib. I believe  Bobby Jones hit in two in 1929.

Yep, that is the story... of course there were no trees then so he could go straight at it!

Mr. Huntley - how close do the big bombers get on #15 at the Dunes?

TH

[Matt Dupre]

The 9th at Rolling Green (614 from the back) was on the original list and still hasn't been reached.  You're hitting the tee shot into a fairway that's uphill/sidehill which negates the roll, and the second shot uphill and between two bunkers to the green.

It's not strategic enough (in terms of dogleg, an "ideal" point for the 3rd shot, or significant hazards) for big hitters not to go for it, but we also haven't had tour players coming by to take a shot.

It's an ongoing debate as to whether Tiger or Kuehne et. al. could accomplish the feat...

[ChipOat]

Bob Huntley:

340 yards is long, to be sure and Jones was acknowledged to be among the longest of his day.  But remember the Spalding Dot in question was a 1.62" ball.  That sized ball went further in the air AND rolled demonstrably further than the 1.68" version that became our standard in 1931 ('32?).

Merion played shorter for Jones in the 1930 Amateur (small ball, no watering system, big-time roll) than for Hogan, Snead et al in the 1950 Open and 1966 Amateur (large ball, soft fairways).  The  par 5 2nd hole was more easily reachable in 2 shots in '30 than post-war.

I've tried to get Tom Paul going on the concept that Golden Age maintenance meld was specifically designed for the 1.62" ball and that the set-up for a 1.68" ground game probably needs to be a bit different to be as effective.

[Bob_Huntley]

Chipoat.

Thanks for the heads up. Having used the small ball at the start of my golfing life, I realize the big difference.

[rpurd]

The 9th at Secession is legit..........I've never played there where the wind was not in your face.  And if it has just been overseeded and wet good luck getting there in 3 shots.

I ran into an interesting hole up in Jaffrey, NH.  There was a par-5 at The Shattuck which looked impossible to reach in 2 (especially from the back tees over the marsh).  Other than that, what a crap course.......believe they are closed due to bankruptcy.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom Huckaby.

I called the pro shop and they tell me that the 15th on the Dunes is still unsullied by the big bombers. At 603 yds from the tips and a breeze in the face, it is going to take a gargantuan swipe to get it there. I have been back there a couple of times and have trouble reaching the fairway, my fourth shot to the green however is always a gem.

[jaybrdy18]

Mr. Paul,
Speaking of Pine Valley Golf Club, has anyone ever reached #15 in two?
That would appear to be impossible!

[George Pazin]

There's a shorter one in Pittsburgh at Sewickley Heights Country Club (I think it's maybe the 15th?) that, during the Pittsburgh Senior Classics, they used to bill as never having been reached in 2. It's only something like 580, but the last 75 yards are fairly uphill.

Here's the really cheap part. They maintain the hole with a stretch of about 50 yards of rough starting about 280-290 out. You're driving uphill on the tee shot and it's probably close to 300 yards to the ridge. If it were maintained as fairway, the bigger hitters could benefit from the roll going over the ridge, but the rough negates that.

Still, if the big boys were in town, I'm sure at least some could get home from the rough, though they probably wouldn't try it during a tournament.

[Mike Benham]

Bob -

Why ask Gib, was he there?      

Mike

Ps:  Gib's writing skills reminds me of the days when sportswriters were articulate and told the story with passion and poise, using words in the dictionary other than "Boo-Yaaa"

[THuckaby2]

Tom Huckaby.

I called the pro shop and they tell me that the 15th on the Dunes is still unsullied by the big bombers. At 603 yds from the tips and a breeze in the face, it is going to take a gargantuan swipe to get it there. I have been back there a couple of times and have trouble reaching the fairway, my fourth shot to the green however is always a gem.

WHEW!  That is reassuring indeed... I've been too humbled on that hole myself to think of it being reachable in two.  Thanks.

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

bakerg,

As confirmed above, Daly did hit #17 at Baltursol in 2 during the '93 Open there, probably p.o.-ing the entire membership  .

625 16th at Firestone South has been hit in two numerous times during the NEC/WSOG.

It wouldn't surprise me that #15 at Pine Valley has been reached on at least a few occasions.

I'll concur that #9 at Rolling Green is unreachable, even today.

How about #18 at Yale?  That huge hill is in the way.

I'll throw out my home course's 711-yard opener.

[Chris_Clouser]

Scott,

I'll throw out the 741 yard 13th at Purgatory, just up the street from me.  I would say the 624 yard approach might be unreachable, but with the prevailing wind possibly helping the player on the second, I could see how some loooong bombers could make it in two.  But probably not anybody in this crowd.

[Rob_Waldron]

Philly Guys

Has anyone ever tickled #4 at North Hills in deux?? I know it is well over 600 yards from the tips and 600 and change from the white tees. As a basically a straight away hole I guess sombody must have reached it.

[Matt Dupre]

Rob,

I've heard from North Hills members that #4 has been reached from both the whites and blues, once by a former assistant at Rolling Green who reached the front fringe of #9 at RGGC from the forward white tee (565) hitting driver-driver.

Big hitter, the Lama...

Matt

[SPDB]

#15, in my mind, is the harder of the two 5s at PV to get to in 2. It's longer, and its uphill

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It wouldn't surprise me if it hasn't been tamed.

[Scott_Burroughs]

#15 just doesn't have a sizable cross bunker 270 yards out from the tee, limiting 300+ drives.

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