News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2005, 10:19:51 AM »
Tom MacWood said:

"Obviously that is true, but does that mean we should remain silent (not ponitifcate) when we see an important design has been compromised?"

Tom MacWood:

Definitely it does not mean that. What it does mean, however, is if you are going to pontificate you've got to also get out there, get involved with a club, a project, the course, an architect, those making decisions and start to understand what the nature of and all the ramifications of the "compromise" is all about. If you don't do that, and I don't think you do (matter of fact not even close), then your pontificating is virtually useless and frankly can be far more counterproductive than productive. Oh, don't worry, I have absolutely no expectation at all that you'll ever understand that, and what I'm saying, or agree with it, but it's the truth--it's the reality. Those of us who do get involved in these projects know that full well---there's virtually no avoiding it!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 10:21:20 AM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2005, 10:20:02 AM »
IMO those who remain silent do more damage than all the potificaters. Those who defend some of this work are ten times worse than the mutes.

The only problem I see with some of this criticism is when it gets personal...which I avoid.

I also try to stay away from loaded descriptions like purist, know-it-all, pontificater and pieces of shit.  :)

TEPaul

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2005, 10:27:42 AM »
Tom MacWood:

That's your prerogative to stay away from getting personal and it's my prerogative to respond the way I want to and I take what you said to me this morning very personally (and as I said earlier I don't give a damn if you think you can get away with it by added a "smiley" to it) and for that I definitely do think you are a total piece of shit. And that is being personal---so what? I think you're a guy with a real slanted agenda too---and for that I think you're just counter-productive and frankly dumb!

T_MacWood

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2005, 10:28:06 AM »
Mike
If you don't agree with my opinion or if you discover my facts are wrong...by all means disagree and bring your better information to the table...but please don't give me this ivory tower, know-it-all crap...it doesn't serve anyone and IMO it is a very weak  response.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2005, 10:35:29 AM »
 I would expect some balance out of my observations. Am I always condemning what I feel is wrong or am I congratulating the good effort as well?
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2005, 10:37:49 AM »
It is not a question of right or wrong but practical or not.
AKA Mayday

T_MacWood

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2005, 10:38:40 AM »
TE
I'm not talking about getting personal with fellow posters (although I try to avoid that as well)....I'm talking about personally insulting architects or committee chairmen or the like.

For example: 'so and so' architect is dumb
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 10:41:01 AM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2005, 10:44:57 AM »
"It is not a question of right or wrong but practical or not."

What are some examples of unfair criticism in the face of practical issues?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2005, 11:13:17 AM »
Does it really matter what someone calls himself or others?

There are plenty of folks on this site who consider themselves moderates politically who are clearly nothing of the sort, when you examine their positions and actions.

What purpose does it serve to label anyone on this site as anything other than maybe passionate?

Much of the controversy surrounding restoration work boils down to trust. And it is a personal matter as to whether any of us trust someone to make the "right" choices. It would seem to me that if one is the man in charge, it would behoove one to try to explain himself as clearly as possible to any critics. It is then up to everyone else to determine for himself whether or not the criticism is valid.

Labelling oneself or others only serves to distract things from the pertinent questions at hand. Look at how many times we try to have discussions of a course's merits, or a restoration's merits, and it ends up being a simple mudslinging contest where each questions the other's motives and qualifications, rather than substantively addressing the questions at hand.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2005, 12:53:08 PM »
GeorgeP:

Excellent post. From time to time we all obviously need to review what we're talking about here ultimately--in other words what is the ultimate principle to be served by the things we say and particularly do;

You say;

"Much of the controversy surrounding restoration work boils down to trust. And it is a personal matter as to whether any of us trust someone to make the "right" choices. It would seem to me that if one is the man in charge, it would behoove one to try to explain himself as clearly as possible to any critics. It is then up to everyone else to determine for himself whether or not the criticism is valid."

You're so right--it does come down to trust and the fact of whether whoever does it does the right thing or makes the right choices. But one eventually has to ask, the right choices for whom?

I am a purist in classic architecture as I've come to understand that term. Tom MacWood may diagree that I'm a purist as he understands that term.

Gil Hanse is probably considered a purist with classic architecture as I understand the term and apparently as Tom MacWood understands the term because MacWood has said on here numerous times he too considers Hanse a "purist".

So what were Gil and I trying to do at GMGC? We were trying to restore that course as purely as we thought it intelligently needed to be for the maximum interest and enjoyment of the membership of GMGC. We both believed in that goal and to a large degree we think we acheived that goal and it appears that to a person the entire membership seems to agree too.

So the question remains did we make the right choices and for whom? To me and I think to Gil the answer to "for whom?" has to be the membership of GMGC.

Isn't that the fundamental principle even the great architects were always attempting to fulfill? I think so, I think Gil does too.

If what we did fufilled that for the membership in the context of the original design intent of a Maxwell or Ross both of whom built good holes at GMGC does it really matter what someone like Tom MacWood thinks of it? His opinion may be important to him but is it or should it be to GMGC, me, Gil Hanse and the membership? I don't think so. He's never even been there and he never will be!


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2005, 01:52:34 PM »
If what we did fufilled that for the membership in the context of the original design intent of a Maxwell or Ross both of whom built good holes at GMGC does it really matter what someone like Tom MacWood thinks of it?

If you get right down to the nitty gritty, none of our opinions on anything that we have no say or control in really matter.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't voice these opinions, share these opinions, discuss these opinions, or even argue vociferously over these opinions.

There is much to be learned, even from folks whose opinions are diametrically opposed to our own. Heck, I'd say especially from people whose opinions are so different. Even if it doesn't change one's opinions, it does help to be forced to think things through thoroughly.

As a very wise man once said, we don't need backslapping around here! :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

wsmorrison

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2005, 01:58:59 PM »
Tom Paul and Tom MacWood on the 7th hole at San Francisco Golf Club at dawn.  The last duel was fought there in 1859  Is it time for another?  And on a classic Tillinghast no less.  Or maybe it has been altered too much for MacWood.  Is it pure enough?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 01:59:35 PM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2005, 02:19:16 PM »
GeorgeP:

I have no issue at all with what you said in your last post. But the opinions on the architecture of a golf course of those that are there, have been there, played the course, know it, come to understand it as well as all the ramifications of the reasons that things were decided upon in the past will always be far more important and interesting and valuable to me than a guy like Tom MacWood who has never even laid eyes on it or its architecture other than to read something about it in a magazine or newspaper from 80 years ago.

Those people at those clubs that those old magazines and newspapers pertain to (if they're like GMGC) have been through all those resources but we have the advantage of knowing the golf course itself. Tom MacWood may not think so but the fact is he has no idea at all----he's never been to some of these courses he tries to write opinions about, including PVGC and from that vantage he can never have much real validity in my opinion.

Some things are simply necessary to do in my book and one is to be totally familar with the actual golf course itself. No matter who you are there just ain't a substitute for that. But he can certainly have his own opinion. Unless he does those necessary things I outlined, though. I'm never going to put much stock in his opinions. How could I? Why would I?

T_MacWood

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2005, 03:36:42 PM »
TE
I find it hard to believe you would be so offended/sensative about my limited comments on GMGC....I've devoted fewer words to that course than one of your average posts.

My postion (if you can call it that) has been:

A.) From a historic perspective the course was never considered one of Ross's premier designs, but that the course no doubt was/is very good.

B.) That the course has undergone a series of changes almost from the beginning -- which are well documented in your booklet.


Wayne
Not pure enough.  :'(

 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 03:37:16 PM by Tom MacWood »

wsmorrison

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2005, 03:48:48 PM »
That's a pretty funky looking mound and bunker behind the green.  Is that original Tillinghast?  I think I read the hole is about 190 yards today from the back 170 from members' tee. How much elevation change is there, or is it played from the flatter right hand side?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 03:49:37 PM by Wayne Morrison »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2005, 04:00:13 PM »
Wayne, I'd estimate the drop to be half a club. Possibly 30 ft. is My guess.

That right side sure is cool looking in the picture. As I recall it, pre-Doak, it was just a sliver.

TEPaul

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2005, 04:17:58 PM »
Tom MacWood:

I'm not surprised. It seems like you find a lot of obvious things hard to believe.

GMGC is considered from a historical perspective not to be one of Ross's premier designs but is/was considered to be very good?

What historical perspective is that? Yours? That's not a very valuable perspective in my opinion since you've never laid eyes on it.

There were a number of changes made to holes #7-14. !-6 and 15-18 are still pure Ross. A number of the holes in the 7-14 midsection by Ross weren't very good according to 20 years of "time test" from the minutes of the club. The reasons why are all there. Maxwell made about four of those much better according to the "time test" since then of those who know the course. In the opinion of the membership Gil Hanse and the restoration master plan did a good job of making the rest as good as they can be now and the membership is happy with the project. That's important to Gil, me and the membership.

I can't really get offended by what you say about GMGC because it's meaningless to me. I don't care if Ross himself panned it---if he'd never seen it what's the value of his opinion?

It's your apparent disrespect for me that pisses me off. You have no idea what I did or didn't do. You have respect for Gil as what you call a purist but I never voted against anything he wanted to do at my course expect fescue distance rough which the course never had. Your apparent disrespect for the way the Philadelphia architectural region thinks of itself including my opinion of it is annoying too. I doubt you know much of anythng about it---you've probably never really been here to see it. Your attitude about PVGC and Crump and Colt is annoying too---you have no real idea what that is about---you've never been there either and don't even know anyone there as far as I can tell. You can read things in old magazines and books but even the veriest tyro to the most sophisticated golf analyst can tell you there's no substitute at all for seeing and playing a course and being involved in the interworkings of it if you want to know it and evaluate it and its architecture. You think of yourself as an expert yet no one is good enough to evaluate architecture if they've never seen it and certainly not a guy like you.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 04:21:04 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2005, 04:34:44 PM »
Mike Malone said to Tom MacWood:

"What Tom Paul is describing is the real world of "restoration". It can get nasty; so, the "purist" must come out of the ivory tower and get down and dirty. This tests one's ideas more than any discussion group will."

Hey Mayday---would you like to come out to dinner with me and Wayne tonight? We want to take you to a diner and put you on the inside of a booth and this time I want to kiss you and hug you! Is that OK?

Why does it take me a 1,000 posts to say something as cogent, as to the point, and as true as you just did? Do you think Tom MacWood understands that and if so is willing to try that--to basically find out what even a purist pretty much has to do if he wants to understand reality and the reality of a restoration project? Anybody can pontificate from an ivory tower with impunity and lack of responsibility like he does. But what good does it do? Who listens to him when decsions get made?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 04:36:42 PM by TEPaul »

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2005, 04:39:43 PM »


The duel hole circa 2004

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2005, 04:41:53 PM »
What happened to the bunker on the right?

How funny is it that the hole is called a "satisfactory par 3" in the old photo's caption?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2005, 04:42:47 PM »


A different view including the eigth fairway

TEPaul

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2005, 04:56:18 PM »
"What happened to the bunker on the right?"

GeorgeP:

Didn't I ever tell you about that? I think I ripped it clean out one morning in an hysterical fit of ANTI-purist rage while totally looped on some great Pinot. Or at least that's what either Tom MacWood or David Moriarty told me. They said it was a Philadelphia against California thing! I don't know about that either--I just can't remember.

Sorry about that. Do you want me to put it back? I think I just threw it in the trees on the right and it's probably still there!


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2005, 04:58:17 PM »
Nah, why bother - it was only satisfactory to begin with!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2005, 05:17:38 PM »
If one ignores the personal attacks  contained in this exchange of ideas (which I am inclined to do as they add heat but no light to the discussion) the dispute is really a common one.  Put simply, it is the classic conflict between the principal actor and the critic.  The actor, in this case Tom Paul, believes that the critic, unfettered by practical concerns, presents an unrealistic view of the creative process and by holding the actor up to overly idealistic standards makes it more difficult to achieve excellent work.
    The critic, here personified by Tom MacWood, believes that it is his duty to hold the actor's work up to objective standards of excellence.  Practical considerations are secondary to the critic's obligation to defend art for art's sake.
    Who is right?  Both to a degree.  Absent a real concern for long term excellence, the actor may give in to pragmatic concerns and unduly compromise the integrity of the design.
    On the other hand, too strong a committment to the artistic vision may make it impossible to achieve anything.  In that case "the best" may become "the enemy of the good."
    In this case I submit that it is very rare that a course can or should be restored to its original specifications.  Many courses do not have the historical records to make that possible.  In my own experience involving the work on Briarwood CC, a 1921 Allison design, there were no architectural plans and very few photos.  Thus an exact replication, even if desired, was impossible.
    But the question remains, how often should a pure restoration be undertaken?  Given the changes in equipment, grass types, maintenance standards and the like, how many courses should be "frozen."  Here we come up against the slippery slope, for too much change to keep up with modern convention can lead to the loss of character. I suggest that of much of the remodelling which occurred over the last 40 or so years suffered from this flaw; a lack of appreciation of the existing architecture and an uncritical desire to modernize.  This is where the critic can be valuable by comparing the characteristics of the old work with the proposed changes.  But in order to be effective the critic cannot be so rigid so as to become irrelevant.
    Finally, unless you have been involved in a project such as this, you cannot appreciate the significance of the "member" problem that Tom has identified.  Members become attached to features, trees etc that almost any critic would deem to be without merit.  They may have little understanding of architectural issues or, even worse, they may have ideas that are not in keeping with the proposed plan or which are deemed to be in bad taste.  But they are members and have the same vote as any other member.  Hence the importance of patient education, negotiation and (gasp!) even compromise in order to complete a project.  It involves a lot of difficult and thankless work which can easily be underestimated by an outsider.  The key is to know when and where to draw the line in deciding what changes are insignificant and which would alter the integrity of the project.  It is in making these decisions that the architect and the committee succeed or fail  The satisfaction comes when the project is completed and the course is greatly improved.

TEPaul

Re:Mirror Mirror on the Wall, Who are the Purists Among Us All?
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2005, 05:20:35 PM »
OK then, I won't put it back. But I feel sorry for the poor slob who slices one into those trees and sees it lying in there. I can just see it now---he'll scream to the rest of his foursome;

"Hey guys hurry on in here and look at THIS---it's the biggest ggoll-darn dingdang divot in the history of golf!"