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JakaB

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2005, 10:11:09 AM »
When did the club realize this hole could not be played everyday by the membership.....I would think for a hole to be truly great it would have to be able to be played.  This hole reminds me of Lido...great in theory and reputation but who gives a damn if it can't be played..

THuckaby2

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2005, 10:11:56 AM »
Fantastic stuff Jeff - many thanks for taking the time.  Pictures do speak many words, but when you add knowledgeable words to great pictures, well then there you have it, a wonderful learning experience.

And 10 Riv remains a fantastic golf hole, due to all of the options and the temptation.  Would anyone here agree that it might be BETTER with today's equipment, making driving the green that much more doable for that many more golfers... upping the temptation ante? When I played it as a high-schooler, driving the green was not an issue... so our options were just directional, and keeping it as left as possible was the only play. Of course the bunker complicated things.  But even we were smart enough to see that shorter and lefter was better than closer to the green on the right.   ;D

And Bill M., re Cuscowilla #5, it's easy to SAY you'll go left every time - hell yes the angle in is a lot better from up there - but that is a damn hard shot to pull off, particularly from the back tees!  To me it's not so cut and dried... I ponder whether the risk is worth the reward... It's pretty easy to hit a 200 yard shot out there to the right and have a full wedge in (not that I ever did that myself, but I saw it done by the smart golfers kicking my sorry butt).  Going left means a very bad miss long, short, right... a lot of risk in my book.  I'm not convinced it's the better play, even with the superior angle - because having that shot several times, well... it ain't exactly easy, even if you're damn close to the green!  That green is so narrow it's very easy to miss on the sides, even from up on the left.

(My apologies to Jeff if this causes a thread-jack.  The similarities and differences between these two great holes just invite discussions of each).

TH
« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 10:27:22 AM by Tom Huckaby »

GeoffreyC

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2005, 10:21:59 AM »
Jeff

That is one of the best posts I've ever seen here on GCA.  THANK YOU.  

The textbooks should copy your post as an example of a picture worth 1000 words.  I will be copying them for my collection.

Riviera is truly a magnificent golf course.

Geoffrey

GeoffreyC

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2005, 10:26:33 AM »
JakaBS

Another brilliant contribution  ::) Thanks so much for your insight.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2005, 10:43:03 AM »
Jeff, You have outdone yourself. This is great work.  thank you

JakaB

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2005, 11:06:42 AM »
JakaBS

Another brilliant contribution  ::) Thanks so much for your insight.

Geoff,

When I saw your name the great sadly recently dead architect Phillip Johnson came to mind....Do you think his glass house near your beloved Yale is a great design for a house....It is a great design without question...but it's not liveable.  The 10th hole at Riveria is a great design without question...but it is not playable by the members of the course on a day to day basis.   It is an artistic achievement tragically flawed in the real world.  Thats nice for the one time visitor but a bitch for the long term occupant..


Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2005, 11:13:10 AM »
Wow!  Thanks for all the nice remarks and comments guys.  I was simply doing this to share the hole with those that have never been there.  The ensuing discussion on the merits of the strategy are great and I'll gladly contribute.  More pictures will follow later this evening.  I'll get some different angles to show different shots.

Ok, I'll try to answer some questions.....


TEPaul,

A little known fact is that the 10th green had NO bunkers around it originally.  I've seen pictures of it and it still looks hard because of the green's cant away from the player, especially from the right side.  

As for your question about how the hole would play with no fairway bunkers.  I do think it would still hold up.  THe only difference being that with the bunkers I feel the golfer is tempted to either play at the green or WELL left of the fairway bunkers when ideally you want to be just short of the bunker far left which one must take a leap of faith and play over the front fairway bunker.  Basically, Thomas hid the perfect location visually by intimidating you with a forced carry and then another bunker there to grab your ball if you hit it too long.  Genius.


JakaB,  

Unfortunately, the hole is played to an alternate green once or twice a week.  I think it's fine.  The only time it stinks is when there is someone playing that won't get a chance to come back.  Doesn't the Old Course get every Sunday off?  Don't most "private clubs" back east get Mondays off?  Why should Riviera be held to any other standard?  I see nothing wrong with closing the green occasionally to preserve it's integrity and conditioning.


Wayne,

Geoff Shackelford, Daniel Wexler, or Tommy N. could probably answer those questions better.  I can't think of a hole Thomas did that is similar to it.


Brian,

I still wear my Tam O'Shanters.  Just not all the time.  I need to get some new ones.  Thanks for reminding me!


Jeff F.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 11:18:36 AM by Jeff_Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

GeoffreyC

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2005, 11:15:08 AM »
JakaBS

I will not polute this discussion further.  I thought you were just a stupid clown trying to stir things up for the hell of it.  However, if you actually believe the crap you type on GCA then you do need to seek some medical advice and I truly believe that.

THuckaby2

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2005, 11:15:31 AM »
Jeff:

Whaddya think about my postulation that the hole might be better today than ever before, because with today's equipment reaching the green or getting very close to it becomes realistic for so many more people, thus adding to the temptation and upping the ante re choices?

TH

TEPaul

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2005, 11:16:08 AM »
John B;

If you and the membership of your course had Riviera's #10 on it you should all consider yourselves lucky if the club only let you all play it once a year!!    

:)

JakaB

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2005, 11:16:42 AM »
Jeff,

Is Riveria open 7 days a week....I've never heard of such a thing at a top notch club.  I thought the 10th green was closed much more than just 2 days a week...if so I am wrong again and apologize to all offended.

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2005, 11:17:02 AM »
Jeff (or anyone):

How far is the carry over the fairway bunkers, especially to the left?

Great stuff!

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2005, 11:20:49 AM »
Jeff Fortson,

Most recognize the inherent architectural and playability values in the hole.

But, what was the club's thinking behind creating another green ?  

I don't mean in the sense of giving # 10 green a rest, but in terms of the architectural and shot values that they wanted to create.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 11:23:07 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2005, 11:21:23 AM »
JakaB,

The club is only closed on December 25th.  The 10th hole plays to an alternate usually on Monday and maybe Tuesday.  This week it has been open the entire time.  Some weeks they may close it on wednesday too.  The course needs rest like all other great clubs.  Instead of closing the course, we close a couple of the greens that really need it and play to alternate ones.  I think it's a testament to Riviera that it can handle so much play, year round.  What other big-time private courses can boast that?


Jeff F.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 11:31:17 AM by Jeff_Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2005, 11:23:28 AM »
Didn't they do it to ease traffic on the green, like PV #8?

Thanks so much for the photos - I look forward to the other pictorials on the other 17 holes. :)

Hope the little guy is doing well - isn't it about time to say Happy 1st Birthday?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Pete Buczkowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2005, 11:41:24 AM »
Jeff,

Thanks very much for the pictoral and your analysis.  At one time I had questioned its placement as the 10th hole and if a similar hole would be better placed elsewhere in the round.  However, after more thought it gives the membership a great 19th hole or nighttime hole.  And you're so right, what an office view!

Some questions I have:  Is the front right bunker a decent play off the tee?  How does this depend on pin position?  I know that is a favorite play for some pros on driveable 4s but wonder if the green shape and contours prevents this from being a good play.  Maybe its a yellow dot?

Thanks,
Pete

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2005, 11:42:51 AM »
Jeff,

A great thread.

As for the dots, my option was the shortest and safest, the green dot on the extreme left. Wedge in, looking straight up the green.

There was no alternate green when I was a member and I cannot remember the course being closed on ANY day of the week.

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2005, 12:00:50 PM »
Jeff F.  
Excellent pictures but for those who haven't played it, the little colored lines were the best.

Many questions and as a 15 year member and the father of the former club historian, maybe I can put in my two cents.

Tom Paul probably knows the hole better than most on the left coast and he is stuck to his computer somewhere in suburban Philly.  Pretty impressive.

Tom H. may have a good point.  With today's long hitting the hole is just as good and may be even better.  In year's past almost all tour players just dropped a ball and hit their two iron 200 yards left and had SW to the green.  Only Daly, much to the cheering crowds would pull out driver.  I saw him make 5 doing so.  Russ Cochran made a 7 there.  I know don't how he did it.

Just think how interesting the hole must have been when it opened, no green side bunkers and no kikuyu.  This would have really brought in the ground game.  They added the green side bunkers for the Los Angeles Open of either 29 or 30.  Billy Bell may have consulted on the construction, but they don't have the "Bell look."  They have evolved into severe bunkers.  They work well.

On why isn't it duplicated more:
The 12th at Rustic Canyon adopts its strategy in a reverse direction.  Procter and Axland, like most, adore the hole and attempted to bring in its strategy in a hole at Wildhorse (the 14th?).  It baffles the locals there.
Once Geoff spoke with a slide show to the Architects Society and mentioned that he was surprised the hole wasn't duplicated more.  My only thought is today's architect is reluctant to use so much acreage for such a short hole.

What you don't see from the pictures, but is a great great feature on the hole.  You think your second shot to the green is to a green sloping back to front.  Actually with the slope of the green it is actually flat, maybe even sloping away from you.  This really adds importance to having the right angle.

The size of the green is a tiny 2,300 square feet.  This scares today's architect, but I believe the green could keep its strategy if built on another course.

At the Nissan (I still prefer LA Open) they always use the back of the green for "Sunday's hole placement."  Actually there is a location front left, just before the green slopes down and away that is frightening.

I will be forever convinced that Ernie Els lost his first major at the 10th.  He lead for 3 days in the 95 PGA.  It was his tournament.  On Sunday the PGA put the flag up front.  The temptation standing on the tee was too much for the inexperienced Els.  After laying up short for three days, his pulled his driver.  Can't remember if he may 4 or 5, but he seemed deflated after that disappointment of not making 3.

Ron Forse built the temporary green.  The priority was that it would not affect the regular green or the play of the hole.  It has fulfilled that goal.  They play charity events on Mondays.  Folks pay $500 to play Riviera and always have the temp to play on #10.  With about 60,000 rounds a year, the regular 10th could be okay, but the club errors on the side of making sure the greens are good for the Nissan.  This is at the expense of member play.

When Jack Nicklaus did his best 18 holes in championship golf, the 10th at Riviera made the list, appropriately so.

Actually it is pretty playable for all.  Hit it 170 yards left off the tee and you have an interesting 130 yard shot.

Finally, a guest standing on the 10th tee said, "why can't I just drive it straight at the green?"  A member I know replied "well you have to play it about 50 times and then you will go left and safe."
A
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2005, 12:06:04 PM »
I meant to say the slope of the canyon actually makes the green flat or sloping away from you.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2005, 12:51:32 PM »
I am sure someone has probably said this in the many posts but wouldn't tree removal give the green a fighting chance for survival?  Trying to judge from the sun angles in the pictures, it seems that the green lacks morning sun.  

Lynn,

I do not think the amount of area is a primary reason why this concept is not implemented.  If you look at many courses there is a lot of room along that line of charm that just simply is not incorporated into the design of holes. So, I think the powers in architecture simply don't believe in or do not feel compelled to explore the line of charm in their designs.  

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2005, 01:02:51 PM »
Kelly, there did exist a sun and tree issue.  Before the Senior Open, Paul Latshaw, who was brought in, did significant tree removal.  The green doesn't get a lot of early morning sun, but it is now adequate.

I don't quite understand your thoughts on land and line of charm.  Sorry.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Mike_Golden

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2005, 01:12:10 PM »
Except for the usual moronic rantings of the GCA clown this is probably the best thread I've ever seen on GCA.  Thanks, Jeff, for sharing it and thanks everyone else for adding their insight.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2005, 01:12:13 PM »
Lynn -

I think Kelly is trying to say that one of the keys to the hole is that hazards are placed in spots where one might wish to go, as opposed to the more common practice of hazards being placed in penal areas that one would be avoiding anyway.

It's nice to hear that the alternate green is not used too much, but it would make me madder than heck to pay $500 for a charity event and end up playing the alternate green.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2005, 01:16:40 PM »
The hole by some could simply have been designed to be a short doglegged right hole.  However, what I called the line of charm maybe more correctly was called the line of instinct by Behr would be the direct line to the green from the tee as indicated by the yellow line on one of the photos.  Often times I see that direct line to the green, and the land that falls between the tee and the green not being used in the design.  It is simply rough, or maybe even wooded.  

MacKenzie said it in his book TSoSA

"Some of us would even go further, and say that no hole is a good one unless it has one or more hazards in a direct line to the hole.  Max Behr, who is one of the best American golf architects, states that the direct line to the hole is the line of instinct, and that to make a good hole you must break up that direct line in order to create the line of charm."

It seems the 10th embodies this concept and more because much is written here about more detailed elements like green size orientation and slope, but I rarely see golf couses that embody the aforementioned concept on any hole, and therefore you see many opportunites where this concept could be employed, the land is there but either the vision, the belief, possibly the construction or maintenance budget did not allow it to happen, but the land is definately there.

Saying that a 2500 sf green does not get a lot of morning sun does not sound adequte to me.  I mean it seems you need more than adequate sun given the green size and type of shots coming in, and you need full sun starting first thing in the morning which in my understanding that is the most important light, but your there and I am in the snowbound land of the about to be new superbowl champions so my insight is without weight.  
« Last Edit: February 03, 2005, 01:23:31 PM by Kelly Blake Moran »

Andy Doyle

Re:#10 Riviera - A pictoral
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2005, 01:24:32 PM »
Jeff:

This is a textbook tutorial on hole design/strategy.  For the amateur architecture afficianado like me that's just learning, this is a classic post.

Maybe Ran would consider adding a section to this site  - something like "My Favorite Hole."  Your post could be the template.

Andy