[Tommy_Naccarato]

One of the more fonder aspects of the game that seems to have been lost in modern Golf Architecture is (My term) the Sportsman's Carry--that carry which for all of the inherant risks provides a leap of faith, and luck, tht makes for the most memorable of golf shots. This shot is one that any golfer can attempt to try, that will allow him the suitable reward that golf presents us during play.

One I love is the 5th at Riviera, a brilliant par 5 of some distance, and you can be anywhere in the fairway, aim for that carry over the "knob" and hit away, making sure that you have enough carry to avoid the trouble just past the peak of the knob, hitting--and in this case-- to a nice banking swell that aims itself to the green.

What are some of the others?

I'm not talking about daunting carries like the 4th, 5th, 6th, & 16th at Pine Valley, I'm talking about the kind which is usually a pretty good indicator of how much quirk was involved in the Game way back then, and even today. One that involves a risk, and maybe even luck, but can be mastered over a period of time. NGLA's got a lot of them, and to hear Pat or even Tom Paul describe them will be an excellent study in Golf Architecture.

A Sportsman's-like Carry......

[Joe Hancock]

Tommy,

I never played it, but walked the course.... I'm thinking the 11th at Shoreacres might be something of which you're speaking?

Joe

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Joe,
 I took the liberty (which I should have done when I orginally posted this) and added the John Madden-Telestrator point of which I'm talking about.  

Another good series of Sportsman Carries would be the long lost art of the blind shot par 3 like the Maiden, Cader and Sandy Parlour. all blind shots that present a suitable penalty for not making the complete carry. All of those had bunkers, and deep ones at that on the other side of those blind dune carries!

[Thomas_Brown]

Tommy - We have to get you some graphite shafts or an intro. to Mr. Pro V1.  #5 is only 425 yards from the new tips.
Sorry - wish I could, but I can't give a slope & rating a single hole.  Vittorio's is your nearest five star dining experience.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
The point of the entire thread is of the way the hole was orginally designed to play. Also, of the three other holes I have mentioned above, two no longer exist, having been moved or drastically altered, and the other has been both chopped and diced to produce a less then thrilling shot option.

[TEPaul]

"One that involves a risk, and maybe even luck, but can be mastered over a period of time. NGLA's got a lot of them, and to hear Pat or even Tom Paul describe them will be an excellent study in Golf Architecture."

Tommy:

Excellent thread and an interesting question---certainly you're looking for examples of nuancy shots and nuancy strategies that are obviously less than obvious. I like the title too---"Sportsman's Carries".

To be honest, as well as I think I probably know NGLA by now I can't really think of an example there that's particularly analogous to the one you gave at Riviera.

There are a few that come to mind and very ironically one of the best may be the hole in Philadelphia that almost transported you to Nirvana---LuLu's #8.

It's certainly very possible, and frankly fairly commonly done to hit approach shots (sometimes semi-misses) that can and will turn out fine or better than fine. You can just imagine what the steep ascending bank that forms the front of the bowl that green sits in can do to a ball---eg cast it forward bigtime or at various carom angles depending on what it first hits. I'm not certain a good player would actually try something like that but on some mis-hits one's balls can turn out better than fine. Some might call that circumstance "fluky" but the point is it's a "high quirk" hole, highly unusual looking and memorable. Some may hate it and some may love it for what it is---but the point is thank God it's still there and no one is thinking of changing it and hopefully never will. Now if LuLu would decide to really cut down the grass on the banks forming the bowl to that hole (obviously that'd be a bit of a maintenance job) the effect of those kinds of "bank shots" would really be exaggerated!

There's another one, I think, that fits your description at HVGC--#2 that actually has changed somewhat from what it once was and the way it was best played (according to Linc Roden) that is extremely unusual in what it actually once called for to get probably the best result. I'll explain the way it is and the way it was and why it's probably a really good example of what I sometimes refer to as what once was Flynn's extreme "shot testing".

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

I think the feature or aspect of the game that you refer to is abundant at NGLA.  I think that is what provides a good deal of its appeal to every level of golfer.

From the first hole through the 18th hole this feature appears again and again, and in some cases, like # 6 and #  8, it's not an option, but a mandate.

When I've talked to people who have played NGLA, either for the first time or the umpteenth time, I usually ask them what shot stood out the most in their round, and in the majority of cases, it was a "sportsman's carry".

There is something challenging and exhilirating about the shot that causes every level of golfer to attempt it.

The beauty of NGLA is that that shot exists throughout the golf course, for EVERY level of golfer, on both the tee shot and the approaches.

In the first three holes alone you can find it in 6 or 7 places where it exists.

"Sportsman's Carries" remind me of Clint Eastwood line, to the effect that they offer challenges, risk/reward.
So how are you feeling today, punk, ......  Lucky ?

Some days, the "force" is with you, others it isn't, and at each hole you get the chance to "make your day", and that's one of the reasons that I find NGLA so appealing.

Each hole represents a series of choices, a game within a game.  Each hole has variety, yet with the constant theme of choice.  One of which is the "sportsman's carry".

All too often, that feature can be taken to extremes, with few or no alternatives available to every level of golfer.  
The Medalist comes to mind.

I think the distinction between "Heroic" and "Sporty" has been lost.  SLOPE, Course ratings and the quest for difficulty have been largely responsible for the demise of "sporty", or its transition to "heroic".

It's clearly one of the elements that makes the game fun.

[ForkaB]

Tommy

Would the hedge at the 1st at CPC qualify for guys like you and TEP for whom the phrase "worm burner" is NOT an exaggeration?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

lol yes the hedge presents such a challenge for many but I think the tree on the right is the real deal. It is the best approach to the green on what is an underated and tough 1st hole. I have hit good drive, then  6 to 4 iron many times. More often than not I am still short for not playing the wet air and/or uphill enough. The right side over the tree allows for a 8 or 9 iron from a straight approach.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich,
To work off of the Pythonian term, Shrubberer, (for which I am one) yes, the shrub would be a sportsman carry in the same verve as Pat explains about NGLA, that is a mandate to carry it and for me a most definitive task!

The Dell is a Sportsman's Carry--absolutely!  So is going over the Dune at the 10th at Friar's Head.

Pat, the first Sportsman's Carry I can think of at NGLA is of course the tee shot at the 2nd. I hope that someday I will have the distance to carry it--Its one of my favorite shots there, but the alternative, while not certainly as rewarding, is just as spicey. Right now I can think of at least a dozen Sportsman's Carries at the National and I just chuckle and gleem!

I'll never forget the words of one Tom Paul when we stepped up to the 8th tee at Lu Lu Temple. "I think your really going to like this hole" and that was an understatement!  Lu Lu #8 is one of my favorite holes in Philadelphia, and for some that might be a shocking statement to put it in such a respected class, well it just belongs there! (So does #4! another Sportsman's Carry, only it isn't a blind one unless you chunk your first shot into the hillside!:)

Its funny though with the conclusion that Pat mentions about, the distinction between "Heroic" and "Sporty" has been lost.  SLOPE, Course ratings and the quest for difficulty have been largely responsible for the demise of "sporty", or its transition to "heroic".

Luck IS clearly one of the elements that makes the game fun and exciting, and I was thinking the same thing myself yesterday. The power game has destroyed these shots from appearing more then just once on most modern courses. Too many good players feel that it takes away from their abilties and adds too much fate and tests one's luck, and to see it at a course like Riviera, where it once existed, yet is barely even maintained is a prime example of what is wrong with the game today.

Or at least the mindset.


 

[Steve Pozaric]

I am not sure this is exactly what you are talking about, but Wolf Hollow, a quirky course outside of St. Louis has a number of quirky holes and a number of blind shots.  Number 2 is a 529 yard hole from the tips/518 from the blues.  Within reach off the tee, the fairway drops off extremely sharply.  If you carry the edge, the ball will likely go a long way down, making it easy to reach in 2.  If you don't carry the edge, you face a difficult shot to reach in 2.  If your ball carries the edge, but does not have enough velocity to go all the way down, you have a stance on a slope that is a 45 deg angle.

It can be seen:

http://www.wolfhollowgolf.com/Pages/Second.html

Bottom picture is from the tee, next up is at the edge of the drop, and top picture is looking back up.

[Sean_A]

Tommy

From the other thread, #4 Sandwich and #6 St. Enodoc, do they qualify?  #s 10 and 12 (I believe) at Nefyn.  On the old part of the course.

Ciao

Sean

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
Absolutely!  Sportsman's Carries are abundant in the British Isles. they are the home of the Sportsman's Carry.

C.B. MacDonald noticed this, and so did many others.

[Steven_Biehl]

One carry that immediately comes to mind is the tee shot on the 14th at The Kingsley Club.  I seem to recall it was a manageable carry from any of the tees.  On the right side of the fairway, two bunkers could be carried to an elevated portion of fairway that sloped away from the golf.  If this shot is successful, a little extra roll down the slope, and a better position for the second shot could be expected.  If the tee shot is short, it lands in the bunker.    A very interesting bit of design, which really stood out to me on that course.

[James Bennett]

try the tee-shot at New South Wales on the famous 5th, and the 12th.  Both par-5's.  Both played staight over a sandhill.  Carry the hill, and away you go, into the hill and there you are.  Also, the 13th, dog-leg par 4.  Get the carry on the inside of the dogleg, and away you go again.

Not quite the quirky bounce-forward option, but an integral part of the hole.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Guys,
This is the protion of the thread where pictures would do a world of justice to it! Especially you Brits!

[Steven_Biehl]

There are a couple of pictures of the 14th at The Kingsley Club on their
website.  The aerials show the best angle.

www.kingsleyclub.com

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

The left side carry from the tee at # 1 at NGLA is sporty. and, if you choose to bail right, then the approach shot over the yawning right side bunker short of the green is sporty.

So, sportsman's carries get introduced to bold or conservative play on the very first hole.  In fact, it's difficult to avoid one.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, as one that "challenged" that left off of the 1st tee, (a topped pull) I know exactly what your talking about!

I did in fact make it out of there in one stroke, played it just left of the right hand fairway bunker and then put it on from there and almost made par on one of my favorite greens in the game of golf. (which I know is one of your favs too!)

Long Live the Sportsman's Carry!

[TEPaul]

"Tommy
Would the hedge at the 1st at CPC qualify for guys like you and TEP for whom the phrase "worm burner" is NOT an exaggeration?"

Rich:

what hedge on the first at CPC? The time you played with me--once I think--if I was hitting the ball low it was only because, like Tiger, I was obviously "controlling my trajectory" for some reason. There was a time a few years ago my trajectory started acting like it was some kind of "independent thinker" but I slapped it in and around the head a couple of times and now it appears to know that I am in TOTAL CONTROL!

[TEPaul]

"The left side carry from the tee at # 1 at NGLA is sporty. and, if you choose to bail right, then the approach shot over the yawning right side bunker short of the green is sporty."

Pat and Tommy:

In the spirit of "truth in advertising", let's try not to make a mountain out of mole hills here, even at NGLA. Let's not get carried away with what a "sport carry" is on that hole. I realize every level of golfer has their own strategies but for me there's nothing sporty about either of those carries on that hole.

I've never hit anything other than a 2 iron off that tee and the first time I played it late one evening after not having been there for about 40 years, I hit what I thought was a good 2 iron somewhat right of the line to the green and when I got down there I was right in the middle of one of those blind pits on the left of the fairway, to my surprise.

Ever since I've hit the 2 iron what appears from the tee to be way right of the line to the green and every time the ball is at the base of and in the middle of the fairway with anything from an L wedge to a 9 iron in to the green depending on the wind and ground conditions.

Plenty of people I've played with there hit driver on that hole and it can be pretty sporty for them to avoid that bunker short and right of the green with a decent drive. If I hit driver on that tee I probably couldn't even reach that bunker but I figure with a 2 iron I still only have an L-wedge to 9 iron in and I've always been confident I can hit a 2 iron more accurately than a driver.

Pat, if I was playing with you and I hit the 2 iron onto that fairway where I always have and I completely flubbed my approach into that bunker short and right of that green and I heard you say to me that's a pretty "sporty carry", the only thing sporty about it would be watching you run for your life as I chased you all over that hole to slap you upside the head with the grip end of my L-wedge-9 iron for saying such a ridiculous thing!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think you'll find that the shot from the bottom of the right side bowl may be a little more than an L-Wedge.

But, more importantly, from that angle you're staring at a bunker, perhaps the top of the flag, depending on hole location, and the sky, nothing else.

If the pin is in the front of the green, it's a dicey shot because you have to get over the bunker, but not much further.  If the pin is n the back of the green or on the spine, it's difficult to get back there on the blind because any shot that goes slighly long has substantive recovery problems.

So, I find it a sporty carry, not heroic, but sporty.

If the wind is in your face, your 2-iron off the tee leaves you a longer shot into the wind.

With the wind, you're left a shorter shot, but, can you hold the ball on the tier where the hole is cut.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
I think you'll find that the shot from the bottom of the right side bowl may be a little more than an L-Wedge."

A little more than an L-wedge? Yes, that's true and if you could read clearly you might've noticed that I said L wedge to 9 iron for me! Do you think a 9-iron is a 'little more than an L-wedge'? Maybe you don't but I do!!

Would you like me to go through a standard set of golf clubs Pat and explain to you what "a little more than" some club is and isn't?

[Casey Wade]

Tommy, would my understanding of the sportsman carry mean you have the option to play to the hole or away from the hole to a certain position, based possibly on the pin position and have equal results rewarding the player?  If so, I would throw the 9th green at Augusta.

Thanks!
Casey

[TEPaul]

"If the wind is in your face, your 2-iron off the tee leaves you a longer shot into the wind.
With the wind, you're left a shorter shot,"

Patrick of Mucci:

You must be suddenly turning into some kind of genius! Man, is that sophisticated information! All these years I thought with the wind in your face it left you with a shorter shot and with the wind it left you with a longer shot! Now you're telling me it's the other way around??

Damn Man---why didn't you tell me this before---I coulda been a contenda!!!

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