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Mike_Young

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What variables does golf have left?
« on: January 30, 2005, 12:59:09 PM »
From the beginning golf was not meant to be fair.
In our search for perfect condiitions and equipment have we helped or hindered the growth of the game.  Variables have always been part of the mystique to me.  Green conditions, bunker conditions, rough conditions, tee conditions, balls that stay round forever, clubheads, shafts.  What are some of the variables that are still left in the game today??
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Philippe Binette

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2005, 01:02:14 PM »
WIND

Mike_Young

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2005, 01:05:36 PM »
Yep, that is one and we will always have that.  And yet the ball has reduced that variable greatly.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Madison

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2005, 01:13:52 PM »
Grooming/course set-up. Same 420 hole that's straight from tee to green, with 60 yard wide corridor between tree lines. One version has 35 yard wide fairway with parallel fairway/rough lines through entire landing area. Alternative is to snake fairway with diagonal landing areas, forcing players to shape their tee shots or to control their lengths on a given line as the fairway is otherwise much shallower. Introducing this variable reduces the effectiveness of the new ball's resistance to curving, adding challenge and interest without adding length.

Ken Fry

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2005, 02:37:59 PM »
Mike,

The players themselves.

Given all the technology and "help" available to the average player, handicaps have decreased by such an insignificant amount over the last 30 years.  Maybe players are hitting the ball farther or straighter, but they're still not getting it into the hole much better.

An arrow may fly straighter, but the Indian using the bow still determines where it goes....

Mike_Young

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2005, 02:45:15 PM »
Ken,
That is exactly my point.  It is easier for people to play golf today at a respectable level than ever before.  I think Joel is saying that in his thread.  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ken Fry

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2005, 02:59:26 PM »
Mike,

But my point is with all the technology available, people are not getting better....

score wise that is....
« Last Edit: January 30, 2005, 02:59:55 PM by Ken Fry »

Mike_Young

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2005, 04:14:38 PM »
I understand and since they are not getting better it means IMHO that they are acheiving more with less time .  So what variables are left that will allow one to make the game more inviting to a population that has no interest in spending the time that it used to take for people to acheive the same handicaps as today.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jari Rasinkangas

Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2005, 04:28:07 PM »
The temperature.  The season can start with very cold going hot in summer and again chilly in autumn.  Different ball flight and different clothing.

Why the score is getting no better for the average golfer is because the modern equipment does not make putts or pitches any easier.  You have to practice the short game a lot to get it working better.  Have you ever seen an average player working on his short game?

For myself I have noticed that if I compare my game in the beginning of 90's with the game last year I hit the ball so much longer that it makes the game much easier than it used to be.  The practice and all physical exercising is getting worse all the time but I am hitting the ball longer every year.  Of course this makes it easier to hit the greens but the putts have to be made anyway.

Jari

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2005, 07:01:26 PM »
Ken Fry,

I would submit that if my generation went back to playing 1960-1970 forged irons, persimmon woods from the same era and the ball, vintage 1960-1970, that our handicaps would rise a good deal.

Technology has countered the aging process.

Ken Fry

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2005, 07:59:43 PM »
Pat,

I know what you mean.  One would think given the new technology all players would improve, but the USGA's average handicap of male players from 1970 to now has changed by less than one stroke.

I did an article for our local paper on this subject last year.  The difference surprised me.  Given the advances in technology, that's hard to believe.  People may be hitting the ball better, but they're not scoring better.

Maybe the current generation of players are just that unathletic compared with the majority in the '70's!!
« Last Edit: January 30, 2005, 08:00:51 PM by Ken Fry »

Tom Jefferson

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2005, 09:13:35 PM »
I'm in basic agreement with Ken Fry, that no matter the external variables such as architecture, conditioning, and equipment, the variable that still dominates and defines the game is internal.  The game is, IMHO, played internally, and is subject therefore to the unfathomably complex nature of each of us.  It is a game that we play with ourselves, and that variable is pretty much untouchable by any external 'force'.  We can each play with any choice of equipment, on a course modern or classic, and the experience of the game will be our own internal one and won't matter one whit which ball we play, or how long the hole, or how fast the roll of the green.  That is the beauty of the game.  And that is why each of us can resonate and sympathize with the plight we all share as we try to get the ball around the lot.

Tom  
the pres

David_Madison

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2005, 09:22:49 PM »
Pat M. and Ken F.:

Are courses more difficult today than they were twenty or thirty years ago, with that difficulty not fully reflected in the course ratings? If so, might that partially account for the lack of average handicap reduction?

Many older courses have been renovated with faster greens, deeper bunkers, water features brought more tightly into play and so on, yet their men's tee ratings hardly move because the length hasn't changed.  Then there's the multitude of courses built in the Dye, Nicklaus, TPC etc. style that from their 6300 yard white tees have virtually the same course ratings as older courses of the same length but with far less complexity.

Doug Siebert

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2005, 09:46:15 PM »
"Average handicap" is a meaningless statistic.  How many people had handicaps in 1970?  How many do today?  What was/is their average age?  How many years had/have each been playing golf?  How many rounds did/does each play per year?

Its easy to lie with statistics because the average person has little understanding of their limitations and caveats.  Often those doing so don't even realize they are doing it.  Whether the USGA realizes it is a question I'll leave for others to speculate upon.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Rob_Waldron

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2005, 10:07:25 PM »
This topic was discussed at length at the PGA / USGA Tournament Administration seminar I attended at Sawgrass several years ago. One answer has been cup positioning. Mike Shea of the PGA Tour passed out the "Pin Position" sheets for the Players Championship. On any given day there were only 2 cups cut more than 4 paces from either the left or right edges of the green. The other two were cut 6 paces from the back edges.

Despite the valiant efforts of the Tournament Administration Staff the Touring Pros still tear it up!

In golf there is always a conflict of interest between degree of difficulty, pace of play and costs. Fast or undulated greens are not only costly to maintain but they slow down putting. Long rough results in lost balls, and added length increases development and maintenance costs while slowing play.

I guess as long as everyone is playing under the same conditions who really cares how low they shoot........The low score still wins!

The USGA has all but abandoned the true concept of par by changing the par on holes during the Open. In the end the low score wins no matter what par is.

TEPaul

Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2005, 10:35:37 PM »
Mike:

One variable that completely fascinates me at the moment is doing away with, or seriously minimizing, one of the "art principles", that being "emphasis". I think that area alone that's become so prevalent in modern golf architecture can be reinterpreted or just plain dropped or really minimized in golf architecture in the future.

Cornish and Whitten define "emphasis", one of the important "art principles" which they say are so applicable to golf course design today as;

"EMPHASIS; The eye is carried first to the most important part of the arrangement and then to other details."

If emphasis in any way carries the golfer's eye to the most important part in a strategic sense---as in the proper way to go---I think that should be minimized as a new creative variable in architecture in the future.

Who says the eye should be carried first to the most important part if that's the proper way to go? I think the eye should be carried first to WHATEVER! After all that's the way of true Nature.

Is what the eye is carried first to in Nnature the most important part or the proper way to go? Of course not!

Mike_Young

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2005, 10:47:16 PM »
TE,
Thats good.  I like that a lot.
I think the variable that needs to come back is "chance" as in fairway lie, divot, rough lie and bunker lie and even putting .  Todays player expects perfection.  Perfection should not be part of the equation.  Also the search for perfection has taken  the maintenance cost to the level they are today.  Ir is one way to get things back in line.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

James Bennett

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2005, 11:14:46 PM »
emphasis sounds a lot like MacKenzies camoflauge, whereby 'false information' is perceived by the untrained eye, leading to challenges being perceived to be more difficult than they are.  

MacKenzie also commented on the ability to see a person's true character when they are faced with the chance outcomes from imperfection.  How does a person respond to a bad lie, a bad bounce or an area of slightly less perfect green.  Many rise above the challenge, others fall way short, noisily! ;)
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

TEPaul

Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2005, 06:10:15 AM »
"emphasis sounds a lot like MacKenzies camoflauge, whereby 'false information' is perceived by the untrained eye, leading to challenges being perceived to be more difficult than they are."

James:

It is! Or one should probably more accurately say a LACK of "emphasis" (in an "art principle" sense) on Mackenzie's part to first draw the eye to the most important part of the arrangement was part of his ideas on military camouflage and his novel application of same in golf architecture.  

I feel that result, however, may've only been a by-product, although certainly an intended one on his part, of his application of the theory behind military camouflage in golf architecture.

Probably the most significant result of his application of the theories behind military camouflage (of the Boer variety), and what he was really intending to do, was to "tie in" what was natural to what was man-made in such a way as to make the divisions or apparent distinctions between them almost undetectable! (this goes directly to the other developing theories on the part of Mackenzie, perhaps the Heathland architects and perhaps even Jones but most certainly Max Behr on the idea behind the importance or even necessity of extreme naturalism in golf architecture and golf!).

It was not lost on Mackenzie in the Boer War that the Boers  made the military trenches that they were actually in so natural looking in how the "lines" of those trenches melded with the natural lines of their locale as to be virtually undetectable to the British military. Not just that, and this is probably the larger "key"---he noticed that the Boers also created "dumby" trenches complete with highly engineered, straight edged, artifical lines just like the British style of military trenches.

The latter is what drew the British military's "eye" (most important part) and also their fire!! Of course that's not where the Boers were and so although the British may've thought so that (the artifical looking trenches) was not 'the most important part of the arrangement'!    ;)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2005, 06:28:33 AM by TEPaul »

James Bennett

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2005, 05:41:58 PM »
tpaul

I wish I had the ability to have written your response.  I agree.  :)The thread on emphasis made me think of MacKenzie's camouflage, which is in exactly the opposite direction to emphasis.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Ken Fry

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2005, 09:04:53 PM »
Doug,

In attacking my "average handicap" example, what relavance do any of your questions have to do with who maintained handicaps now or in 1970?  Their age?  Times played?

I can see you try to argue that information from one era can't be relevant with another era given all possible variances, but I use this information to prove a general point:  golfers haven't gotten much better at scoring in spite of the technology available today.

I could also have added that golf courses and the ratings used to determine handicaps have changed drastically in the last 40 years.  When my golf course opended in the early '60's, it was ranked one of the "200 Most Difficult" in the US by Golf Digest.  Our course rating was 72.9 with a slope of 129.  Not very high  numbers compared to today's courses, but with no changes to the golf course, our current rating has dropped to 69.2, slope 119.  The explaination given to us is the criteria used to determine these numbers changes often.

So while I use this statistical example to prove a general point, I'll remain an "average person who has little understanding of their limitiations and caveats."

Brent Hutto

Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2005, 09:40:57 PM »
I have no idea why the oft-quoted "average handicap" doesn't change over time. It's a question with a fundamentally unknowable answer since we can't perform and experiment where we control who does and doesn't keep a handicap index and how they play the game.

That said, here's a thought experiment. What if the population of people who maintain a USGA handicap index were made up of individuals, each one of whom was willing to maintain a handicap as long as it doesn't exceed a certain numerical value? So I might be willing to think of myself as a "18 handicap" but if it stayed higher than that for a while I'd just quit participating in the system because it's too embarrassing to have an index of 26 or whatever. Some other person might figure if their number were more than "15" then it's not worth the trouble of turning in score.

If this hypothetical situation were true, then it would be perfectly plausible for the distribution of individual willingness to be in the system at various indices could be constant over time. Maybe there's always going to be 10% of golfers willing to keep a handicap as long as it's under 15 plus another 20% willing to keep one as long as it's under 25 and so forth. You might even think that some people would manipulate their reported scores to achieve "vanity handicaps" below their personal threshold.

This sort of population of golfers would produce a system under which the "average handicap" is insensitive to the actual difficulty of the game itself or of golf course conditions, at least over a relatively broad range. In other words the observation of unchanging handicaps in the face of equipment improvements could plausibly be explained by nothing more than the fact that handicap indices are a social construct in addition to being a supposedly objective measure of a golfer's potential at any point in time.

But we'll never know, will we?

Doug Siebert

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2005, 02:40:24 AM »
Ken,

My comment about "limitations and caveats" was about people's understanding of statistics, not the people themselves!

Brent did a good job of explaining stuff like self-selection which is another way to illustrate it, but my point was that whatever number the USGA shows in 1970 and shows today for average handicaps doesn't prove or disprove anything as to whether golfers are any better or worse now than they used to be.

As to your course rating, I'm actually very surprised at that.  Are you sure there weren't any relevant changes?  I thought the idea behind course ratings was that they were supposed to remain constant.  They certainly haven't changed the distance equation for calculating a course rating, and since that is by far the most important factor in calculating a course rating I can't see how it could have shrunk by that much.  You sure the course isn't shorter today?  If it is true that your course was a 72.9/129 and is now a 69.2/119 without any changes, that would imply that to maintain the same handicap you'd need to shoot FOUR STROKES better.

So if you played to scratch on your course at 72.9/129 and shoot the same scores today, you'd be a 4 handicap even though you haven't gotten any worse.  That would imply today's golfers are shooting lower scores if you believe they have the same handicaps they used to.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Sean_A

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Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2005, 04:10:55 AM »
Doug & Ken

I would think there are many more people with handicaps today than in 1970.  If this is the case, statistically, scores will be higher on average when there are more samples in the pool.  Much like test scores.  The more people that randomly take a test, the higher the scores are likely to be.  This could explain some of the offsetting of better technology in relation to handicaps remaining fairly steady.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Mark_F

Re:What variables does golf have left?
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2005, 05:20:33 AM »
I think there's still a whole lot of variation in the clubs to come.

After all, manufacturers are constantly strengthening lofts, so soon there will be a gap 9-iron available, followed by the gap 8-iron, gap 7-iron etc, and finally the gap 3-wood, formerly known as the driver.

This will mean a change of course to the 14 club rule, which will be known as the 14 club gaps don't count rule, and mean the end of caddies on the US PGA tour, in favour of Hummer carts.

Fine by me, as long as the Hummer trend doesn't spread to Macrihanish...