[T_MacWood]

The years is 1913. You have perhaps the greatest inland site for golf in the world. What architect would you hire and why?

[wsmorrison]

George Crump.  He'll do it for free and give Colt $10,000 and a lot of the credit  

[BCrosby]

Interesting. Ross was still relatively unknown. Mack, Flynn, Thomas hadn't really arrived on the scene in 1913.

If the land is in the US, the best known designers would have been CBM or Travis. Leeds would have been too much of a nut case.

If in the UK, you'd go with Colt.

Or is there a trick to the question?

Bob  

[Ted Kramer]

A.W. T

I like his style.
If I ended up with something that resembled either BP Black or Ridgewood CC I'd be a very happy man.

-Ted

[Dan_Callahan]

I'd sit on the property until Alister MacKenzie was available. Then I'd disappear for a few years, only returning when the course was done so I could appreciate his work in a single, momentous moment.

[Jeff_Mingay]

My gut reaction is Colt.

If it proved expensive to bring him over from England, I'd contact Tillinghast.

[T_MacWood]

1913 Ross's CC of Havana was recieiving international acclaim. You've also got to consider Willie Park-Jr and Herbert Fowler/Tom Simspon.

What were the best golf courses in the world in 1913?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Myopia Hunt?

[Robert Emmons]

Garden City Golf Club??

[Jeff_Mingay]

Fowler/Simpson in North America would be good too, Tom. Great suggestion.

[Andy Levett]

I'd sit on the property until Alister MacKenzie was available. Then I'd disappear for a few years, only returning when the course was done so I could appreciate his work in a single, momentous moment.

It's quite a thought to speculate how PV would have turned out if MacK had been hired. 1913 was the year he did Sitwell Park.
What would PV have been like with MacK obsessed with  creating those wild greens? Better? Or maybe a disaster.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood asked:

"The years is 1913. You have perhaps the greatest inland site for golf in the world. What architect would you hire and why?"

The greatest inland site in the world where?

If it were in England I'd hire one of the heathland architects in 1913. If the site was in New York, I'd try to hire Macdonald/Raynor or maybe Emmet. If it were in New England or particularly Rhode Island I'd probably try to hire Ross. If it were in the Philadelphia area I might try doing it myself with the collaboration of the amateur contingent from the "Philadelphia School of Architecture" that appeared to be regularly floating in and out of the likes of Merion East and PVGC that were beginning to be created.

Of course another option would be to just wait about 80-90 years and just get Bill and Ben to do it no matter where in the world it was!

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I think it is far more than the question of what were the best golf courses in the world at that moment. I think the better question would be which courses were hosting the more important golf tournaments.

One year after Shawnee, his first course, opened, Tillinghast and Worthington (Shawnee's owner) started the Shawnee Open in 1912. The best players, amateurs and professionals alike, descended on Shawnee-on-the-Delaware to play. from the first tournament through the mid-twenties, the Shawnee Open was considered one of the most important tournaments in the land, achieving what we might consider near-major status today.

The next year, with this one course under his belt, Tillinghast was on the road to design Brackenridge Park, Fort Sam Houston Golf Course, a redesign of the San Antonio Country Club and out to San Francisco to close the deal on the San Francisco Golf Club.

His early success and popularity as a preferred designer is owed to his consummate talent in promoting himself, and he did this through the Shawnee Open. The popularity of the course and praise for the designer was immediate and received coverage from sea-to-sea as much as anything that Tilly did, because of those who played in it and returned talking about it.

Baltusrol was also one of the world's great courses at this time having hosted several national championships already, and yet in 1918 they agreed to scrap their great course so that Tilly could design and build two new ones.

The man definitely knew how to market his services.

[Bob_Huntley]

I thought the answer to this question was always:

The one with the big- "here use your own description of mammary dysplasia."

[Jeff_Mingay]

Actually, in retrospect, bringing Colt, Fowler, and/or Simpson to North America might not result in the very best golf course possible because of the limited time they'd inevitably spend on-site throughout construction.

In my mind, that would be a consideration.

I might have to call George Cumming or Nicol Thompson!

[TEPaul]

"Actually, in retrospect, bringing Colt, Fowler, and/or Simpson to North America might not result in the very best golf course possible because of the limited time they'd inevitably spend on-site throughout construction.
In my mind, that would be a consideration."

Jeff:

That's precisely why these two Colt advocates on here (MacWood and Turner) when they keep proclaiming that Colt is not getting his due with PVGC are showing a considerable lack of commonsense, in my opinion.

Crump had been analyzing that site for probably a year before Colt first saw the site in June 1913. Colt is there for one week and he never again returns to America. Crump spends the next four and a half years there every day until he dies prematurely.

You figure it out!      

[T_MacWood]

"Actually, in retrospect, bringing Colt, Fowler, and/or Simpson to North America might not result in the very best golf course possible because of the limited time they'd inevitably spend on-site throughout construction."

Jeff
That would probably disqualify MacKenzie and Alison as well....and Ross...and Tilly....

There is something to be said for quality over quanity...when it comes to time.

In America who was the biggest name among these three in 1913: Donald Ross, AW Tillinghast or HH Barker?

[Paul_Turner]

Tom Paul

Still hiding your head in the sand, I see.  The club only wants Crump credited and you know it!  

Do you reckon there are 2 hands on the stick plan? I do.

One looks to be in a blue/grey pen or pencil..like Colt's in the design booklet shown in Finnegan's book.

The other hand is darker and labels the greens differently "G8"... likely Crumps, it's certainly not Colt's.  Some frankly bizarre holes  drawn by that hand on the back 9 (in sequence too)!!  How do you explain those, eh.

(Send me any email or IM)

In 1913 Colt did probably have the best resume.  But Mack was up to speed too. Not sure what Simpson had done by then.  Nor Ross.

Tillie?  I wonder how miffed he was for not being hired in 1913 by Crump.  Was he a full time architect by then?

[ForkaB]

John Sutherland

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul
Still hiding your head in the sand, I see. The club only wants Crump credited and you know it!"

No Paul, I don't know that and the fact is I do know PVGC and it's membership a whole lot better than you do and I have for over 25 years now. The real irony here with Colt is that many in and around PVGC assume and have assumed for years that the course was to a very large extent designed by Colt. The ones I've known for years who might be seen as knowing more than most members of PVGC about the architecture of the course felt that way because all of them seemed to have been aware of Colt's hole by hole design booklet and that they assumed was the design of the golf course. Of all the members I've known over the years and talked to about that though, not a one of them had actually seen Colt's hole booklet or looked at it carefully. On the other hand, I'm fairly certain that hundreds upon hundreds of people have looked at that topo routing map of the golf course that's hung in the front room for years. If any of them looked at it closely and saw the inscription "Property of George Crump, March 1913" they may've assumed, as Finegan did, that that was all the work of George Crump. But what everyone who belongs to PVGC and knows the club and course does know is the extensive amount of time and money Crump put into the golf course. But the fact is so many have been aware of that Colt hole design booklet and have assumed that Colt designed the golf course and that is a fact I've known personally for many years from many members and the fact is you've not. It was not until Shelley's book and then Finegan's book that the Colt booklet was carefully studied and found to be somewhat different than the design of the holes on the course turned out to be. That may've been the point where the contribution of Colt or the club's perception of it began to be minimized. Of all the members I've know who believed that the design of the course may've been Colt's seemed quite intriqued and proud of that but again, that is something you would not know so I can't blame you now for not understanding it. The real irony is that we now know far more about who actually did what than the club has ever before known. So the truth of the details is beginning to come out and I don't see that any of the members I know who are aware of that are upset about it or resist it. But again, I wouldn't expect you to know or understand that. You and Tom MacWood are only going on what you've read in the Shelly and Finegan books and the truth is neither one give Colt the credit he's due. The membership should know that and they also should know that Colt did not design that whole golf course as many thought he did for the reasons I just explained. And that is the truth of how PVGC both looked and and probably looks at it now. And that I do know for the reasons I've just given. But you can continue to rail against the Club for always glorifying Crump that served to minimize Colt but you would be wrong. And this apparent notion of Tom MacWood's that the club set out on a dedicated campaign immediiately following Crump's death to glorify Crump at the expense of Colt simply because Crump blew his brains out rather than died of poison from an abscess is the most laughably illogical assumption or conclustion imaginable!

"Do you reckon there are 2 hands on the stick plan? I do."

By the stick plan do you mean what we call the first topo routing map? If so I never have reckoned there were two hands on it but that's surely possible. Have you actually looked at that topo routing in the maintenance building?

"One looks to be in a blue/grey pen or pencil..like Colt's in the design booklet shown in Finnegan's book."

Do you mean on what we call the first topo routing map?

"The other hand is darker and labels the greens differently "G8"... likely Crumps, it's certainly not Colt's.  Some frankly bizarre holes  drawn by that hand on the back 9 (in sequence too)!!  How do you explain those, eh."

On the first topo routing map? If you mean by the sequences of lines particularly on the back nine and some on the front nine I've so far accounted that to Crump trying to route the course on his own before Colt arrived. To the extent those lines don't conform to the way the course turned out one should probably logically assume those are the routed holes Colt came up with when he did arrive in June 1913. I assume from those lines on the back nine that don't conform to the way the course turned out may be the reason Crump called on Colt! The lines on that first routing that do conform to the way the course turned out should probably be assumed to have been Crump. But as we've said many times on here it's impossible to know what either of them came up with when they were out there together. We certainly do know and can see on the second topo that some of the things Colt came up with Crump overruled and X-ed out. I hope you understand that.

That is in a routing context. The other context is the "desigining" of the particulars of the holes of the routing and only comparing the similarities and difference of the way the course turned out to Colt's hole design booklet can determine what should be attributed to Colt and what should be attributed to Crump.

[Paul_Turner]

Yes I mean the stick diagram that shown in the super's office...the one Ian sent me.

Two hands. Different pens/pencils.  Different labelling.

If the club was interested in Colt/Alison/Tillie's and other's contribution, the I'd expect to see something in the clubhouse on the card etc.  But they don't!

[TEPaul]

Paul:

I've never noticed the light blue lines on the first topo routing map in the super's office that're on the second one in the clubhouse. The same photo you have from Ian he also sent me (a mumber of times actually) and to be honest I can't see details or distinctions very well on that photo. But I'm certainly interesting in anything that would indicate what's on there and from whom. Hand-writing analysis, drawing style, color lines, whatever. I dont see any of the roman numerals on that map that are on the other one that I've very much assumed are Colt's. Have you ever been in the super's office and looked at that first topo routing? Have you seen the notation, for instance, on top of it and if so what does it say?

Let me ask you something else Paul. Since Tom MacWood is obviously dedicatedly avoiding answering our continuous questions about what he thinks the significance of a possible Crump suicide is to what that club has felt about Crump and Colt let me ask you if you think a possible Crump suicide has any significance in that vein and if so what would it be?

[Paul_Turner]

I don't think Crump's suicide detracts from him, in any way.  But I would like to know why he did it.

I'll enhance the photo so you can see what I mean.  You can see an entire 18 hole progression, but the back 9 holes look to be in a different hand, when compared with say holes 1-4, which are routed correctly.

Colt used roman numerals and simple numbers.
 

[Sean_A]

It depends on how much money I had.  If I was flush, Colt or Fowler.  If I was broke, Braid.

Ciao

Sean

[T_MacWood]

Unlimited funds.

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