The worst break of all

[George Pazin]

Question for our rules mavens:

How do they determine if the first group out is out of position? Time guidelines?

Or do they just avoid putting Paddy, Langer and Glen Day out first?

[JESII]

There is a time par for each hole and they could fall off that prescribed pace.

[JohnV]

The first group is based strictly on time, while all others must be both over time and out of position.  Being out of position is defined differently by different organizations.

The biggest problem I have with the USGA's timing policy is that they are too loose in defining "out of position".

The USGA's definition for their championships is:

Par 3 - You must be on the tee before the group in front leaves the next tee.
Par 4 - You must be on the tee before the group in front leaves the green.
Par 5 - You must be on the tee before the group in front is on the green.

My realistic definition is:

Par 3 - You must be on the tee before the group in front reaches the next tee.
Par 4 - You must be off the tee before the group in front leaves the green.
Par 5 - You must be off the tee before the group in front reaches the green.

My dream definition would be:
You must reach the tee or your ball before the group in front of you has cleared your next landing area.  In other words, you should have to wait for a few seconds.

Appologies if I got the USGA policy wrong, as I'm trying to do it from memory.  I know the Par 3 one is correct and it drives me nuts sometimes.

[Rick Shefchik]

I don't buy that Hogan intentionally tried not to hit the hole or the flag with his approach shots. That claim is not found in either of the recent biographies about him, and I think Hogan would be the first one to say that the game is hard enough as it is without intentionally trying to not hit the target.

Had Howell's ball stayed in the hole for an eagle, and he'd gone on to win the tournament, I think Tiger would have reason to think he got a worse break than Howell actually did when his ball did not stay in the hole from 100 yards.

[JESII]

I don't know Rick, have you seen those flagstick's at Merion? If you hit one dead on you might lose the ball.

Did you ever hear the one about a reporter asking Snead what he thought of Hogan telling his caddy, during the morning round of a 36 hole day, to be careful when he was replacing a particular divot? Hogan says "be careful with that know, we're coming back this way this afternoon". Sneads reply to the reporter; "if he's that f***ing good why doesn't he just miss the divot". CLASSIC!

[Jason McNamara]

Question for our rules mavens:

How do they determine if the first group out is out of position? Time guidelines?

Or do they just avoid putting Paddy, Langer and Glen Day out first?

George -

The club where I'm a member was one of last year's US Open Sectional Qualifying sites.  Langer pulled out of qualifying at a late date, after the tee times had already been made.  He was in the last or second-to-last group.

Jason

[PThomas]

I feel Mr. Van de Velde got a pretty bad break when his shot hit that railing...

and it's really revolting that any pro round would take upwards of 5+ hours...man, you RARELY have to look for your ball, unlike some of us who have to spend far too much time looking where our shiity shots went.....hit them with sroke penalties, that would stop them!

[Philippe Binette]

Had Howell's ball stayed in the hole for an eagle, and he'd gone on to win the tournament, I think Tiger would have reason to think he got a worse break than Howell actually did when his ball did not stay in the hole from 100 yards.

Nick: that's not a call to tell to Greg Norman...

1) Mize Masters 1987
2) Gamez at Bay Hill
3) Tway PGA 1986
4) Frost New orleans

Can you name more hole outs that have beaten Greg Norman...

[PThomas]

Phillippe -- while probably had a fewer number of holeouts against him, he may have had the two most painful and historically important ones of alltime:  72 British, when Lee stopped the Grand Slam run, and 82 when Tom snatched his 5th open away...

I still remember watching the latter in my lving room in the rocking chair..argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[james soper]

the big break II. how many breaks do these pros get?

[Philippe Binette]

At least, Nicklaus was beaten by hole-outs by great players...
Trevino and Watson... so you can expect it...

But loosing two majors from hole-outs by BOB TWAY and LARRY MIZE... that's gotta hurt...

[Chris Kane]

Philippe, Norman lost the 86 PGA all by himself.  He shot 40 on the back nine.