[Jerry Kluger]

Las Vegas is all about gambling and each casino is competing for the business of the big players.  In order to attract them they give out comps which can be rooms, meals, limos, and golf.  The meals in the better restaurants are always over priced because they want their big players to feel that they are getting something of value in return for the action they are giving the casino.  Same is true for the golf.  A large percentage of the play at the courses associated with the casinos is free to the high rollers, and again, they are more interested in having them believe that they are getting something for their gambling action than worrying about the greens fees.  

I went to Las Vegas with a high roller and we stayed at the Mirage and played Shadow Creek, and the four of us did not pay for anything including the limo to the course, and meals at the course, etc.  But then again, he was gambling for very high limits and his swing of $25K at a time was worth more to them than some greens fees.  We were also invited by an exec at Caesars to play Southern Highlands, which we did, because he heard the guy was a high roller and they wanted his action.

The best deal in Las Vegas is to play in the summer if you can take the heat.  I played Paiute, Dragon Ridge, Revere At Anthem and Primm Valley for under $50 in the summer.  115 degrees is hot but with some cold towels and ice and water, you can make it through.

[JakaB]

I don't think there is any question that Cascata would be a nice place to play for free....but....for the people who pay where they play you need to remember that $250 Vegas dollars are not equal to $250 in your pocket at home...If you accept that a 3 day trip to Vegas is a potential $5K nut...$250 is 5% of your stake.....consuming approximately 10% of your gambling/recreation time....it is a potental boukou value...

[Kelly Blake Moran]

With help from Tommy I think the image above will depict a Fazio green at Back Brook and I was comparing it to the image of hole #9 at Cascata.  

I was surprised by how similar the two greens are, and how the designs could have come about in two totally different environemnts.  For Rees and Fazio could this be a broiler plate design, or is it a classic design,  generally speaking in the same way a Redan is a classic design for many architects, possessing qualities that deserve repetition.  Maybe some one could post them side by side.

[Mike_Cirba]

Working with the land, evidently.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy Hughes,

With Semi-Private room rates in New York Hospitals of
$ 1,800 and up, $ 500 for a round of golf seems like money well spent.

I'll hazard a guess that the food and service are better as well.

When given a choice, choose being stuck with a cactus needle rather then a hypodermic needle, every time.

A day at Cascata, Shadow Creek or Pebble Beach is something you'll remember for the rest of your life.

A day in a hospital is something you'll try to forget for the rest of your life.

This isn't a dress rehersal.  Enjoy it while you can.

Mike Cirba,

Before making snide comments about the architect, perhaps you should examine the site, play the golf course, and then let us know your thoughts.

[pdrake]

How is a day at Cascata something you will remember for the rest of your life??  I can see Pebble, maybe Shadow Creek.  I only see the prospect of a big VISA bill after playing Cascata..........

[Patrick_Mucci]

P Drake,

Have you played Cascata, Shadow Creek and Pebble Beach ?

[pdrake]

Yes I have...........I was comped for Cascata and Shadow.....and actually paid for Pebble when it was in the 100s.............Cascata is not in the same class as the other 2

[Patrick_Mucci]

P Drake,

How would you rate the sites on a comparitive basis ?

[pdrake]

obviously Pebble is one of the best sites in the whole world.........Fazio did an all world with the Shadow Creek site.......as far as Cascata I can't compare it with these two.  I see a lot of Rio Secco in Cascata.......

[Patrick_Mucci]

P Drake,

That's not the question I asked you.

I asked you to compare the sites.
Cascata, Shadow Creek and Pebble Beach.
Confine your answer to those three.

Shadow Creek was far from an ideal site, but dirt/sand could be easily moved, it just took money.

Could the hills/mountains surrounding the canyons at Cascata be easily moved ?

Perhaps you'd like to review the aerial and ground level pictures before answering the last question.

[pdrake]

Look.........I do not like the course and I do not like the site..........as said it has a lot of Rio Secco in it.......plenty of mountains and such that couldn't be moved.  And add Rees to the picture and it falls flat in my eyes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

P Drake,

Who in your mind could have designed and built a wonderful golf course on that site, and how would they have done it ?

Could that site produce a wonderful golf course ?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Patrick,

According to Doak, his Stone Eagle course in the Palm Springs area on the side of a desert mountain is a fairly severe site.  I think he said it had something like 300 feet of elevation change.  I know it is a different site than Cascata, but they sound pretty similar otherwise.   We shall see if a wonderful course can be built on that type of terrain.  As for Cascata's site, we'll never know.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Patrick,

I think Mike was being witty not snide.  I am amazed at the similarity of the green designs.  It almost looks like a type of design you could mail in to the field, and a type of design you could use on other projects, possibly flip it over and hold it up to the light if it helps with the balance of the course.  It does not seem like the type of design that someone grinded out in the field.  Or, maybe as I suggested above this style of green generally speaking is a classic design like a redan that bears repeating because of its tremendous strategic qualities. Therefore, it is a paradigm that we can expect will be incorporated into the great modern courses because of its strategic and aesthetic qualities.  It definately is a style that could be used on any site in the country, transported from area to area so the locals can actually play one.  

I think the answers, or I guess we can only conjecture the reasoning behind these similar design appearing on 2 very different sites, the answer as to how this comes about is enormously important to understanding the state of American golf course architecture as practiced by its esteemed leaders.  Or maybe the green fees is a more important issue...

To be fair there may be some similar green designs that we can post here between say Friars Head and Stone Wall, or similar green designs may be found when comapring Pacific Dunes to Hidden Creek where by just from the pictures you have almost the same exact look

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott Burroughs,

Are you telling me that you equate a few vague words from Tom Doak about a site that you've never seen, with the aerial and ground level photos posted by John Foley ?

Kelly Blake Moran,

Knowing Mike's sense of humor, I would say that he was being witty and snide, and that's okay, but, he's usually thorough in his approach and it's unlike him to comment about a golf course that he's never seen.

As to the similarity of the greens, I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing.

It's not uncommon for this group to sing the praises of CBM, SR and CB, all of whom repeatedly duplicated holes and greens at different sites.

Isn't the test in the playability and not the originality ?

If you condemn one duplicate hole, don't you have to condemn them all ?

I would think the critical question would be:
Do the holes/greens play well ?
If yes, then there should be no criticism of their duplicate nature.
If no, then there should be criticism of their inherent design.

[Andy Hughes]

With Semi-Private room rates in New York Hospitals of
$ 1,800 and up, $ 500 for a round of golf seems like money well spent.

I am sure there are many things more pleasant than a hospital stay.  And I am sure many of them are cheaper than $1,800 and up. That does not mean that they are good values or inexpensive.
(am I to infer that you are in the hospital Pat? Sorry to hear that-hope all is well)

When given a choice, choose being stuck with a cactus needle rather then a hypodermic needle, every time.

I don't know, I've seen some rather viscious cactus needles!

A day at Cascata, Shadow Creek or Pebble Beach is something you'll remember for the rest of your life.
A day in a hospital is something you'll try to forget for the rest of your life.

Certainly true.  But, not sure this really has any bearing on the quality of the course, or whether $250 is a 'deal' for a round of golf.

This isn't a dress rehersal.  Enjoy it while you can.

Amen Pat, words to live by. But for those of us who consider $250 a lot for a round of golf, its hard to consider it a 'deal' especially when the course may be average or ordinary at best.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Then Pat you have probably played both greens so I ask you your questions.  Furthermore, the Redan was oft repeated, this was a decision arrived at by these architects n accordance with their judgement about the qualities of that type of green.  Does this green design we see in the above pictures meet that standard?  Did Fazio and Jones make a sound judgement in choosing this type of green as a design worth repeating, or should they if I am presuming too much.  And, is it possible these are broiler plate designs, not because the quality of the design bears repeating, but because it expedites the design and construction process, its safe, smart, attractive, and off we go to next big job. does that possible scenario bother you as a student of architecture, does the idea of designing a green in the field which many amateurs on this site would give anything to have that opportunity, does that opportunity to design a green on a paticular little piece of ground get diminished by that kind of approach to design, the broiler plate mentality.  I know I have presumed a lot here, maybe not in a fair way, but it is enough to bother me, and if I were a student of the profession i would be somewhat let down by the professionals who approach their job in this manner.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy Hughes,

No, I'm in the beautiful snow covered north.

One certainly hopes that every dollar they spend will be in return for "value".  But, tastes are varied.
Some people absolutely loved Cascata and thought the money spent was well worth it.  Others who have played it, like P Drake, felt differently.

My point was, don't be swayed by the opinions of people who haven't played it.  Especially, if they have an agenda.

I know people who don't like NGLA.  And, they've played it.
We all have to judge for ourselves because our preferences and tastes are different.

$ 500 is a lot of money to spend for a round of golf.
My point was, you could be spending a lot more and enjoying it a lot less.  People go to Vegas and gamble and lose $ 500 in
15 minutes, and what do they have to show for it ?  That they got comped a $ 3.25 drink ?  Spending about 4 hours in a healthy environment, with great vistas, playing a game we all love, shouldn't be viewed as a waste of time or money.

I'll bet you pay $ 125 an hour for lots of things.
Start with your dentist, doctor, plumber, copy/fax machine repairman, etc., etc..

This isn't an everyday event.  It's something you do to indulge yourself, so, if you're going to be in Las Vegas,
why not treat yourself to a day you'll never forget.

With respect to needles, have you ever seen a viscious looking nurse, on her first day on the job, wielding a big one ?
I'll take the cactus and what comes with it every time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kelly Blake Moran,

Then Pat you have probably played both greens so I ask you your questions.  Furthermore, the Redan was oft repeated, this was a decision arrived at by these architects n accordance with their judgement about the qualities of that type of green.  Does this green design we see in the above pictures meet that standard?  Did Fazio and Jones make a sound judgement in choosing this type of green as a design worth repeating, or should they if I am presuming too much.

I'm unqualified to answer your queston because I haven't played both holes/greens[/color]
 
And, is it possible these are broiler plate designs, not because the quality of the design bears repeating, but because it expedites the design and construction process, its safe, smart, attractive, and off we go to next big job. does that possible scenario bother you as a student of architecture, does the idea of designing a green in the field which many amateurs on this site would give anything to have that opportunity, does that opportunity to design a green on a paticular little piece of ground get diminished by that kind of approach to design, the broiler plate mentality.

It is possible that your above assessment is correct.
However, before drawing that conclusion, we both have an obligation to play those two holes/greens BEFORE making any assessment, good or bad.[/color]

I know I have presumed a lot here, maybe not in a fair way, but it is enough to bother me, and if I were a student of the profession i would be somewhat let down by the professionals who approach their job in this manner.

I understand your point, and it may or may not be valid, depending upon the quality of the holes/greens.  But, in all fairness we can't, and shouldn't determine that until we've played both of them.[/color]

[Andy Hughes]

One certainly hopes that every dollar they spend will be in return for "value".  But, tastes are varied.
Some people absolutely loved Cascata and thought the money spent was well worth it.  Others who have played it, like P Drake, felt differently.

I have no real opinion of Cascata. I have never played it, and have not meant to say it was worthy of love or otherwise.
I am just amazed, as I said, that someone who paid $250, and didn't really care for the course, said it was a deal at that price.  The game is just so pricey anymore.

I know people who don't like NGLA.  And, they've played it.
We all have to judge for ourselves because our preferences and tastes are different.

This is certainly true. My gist had nothing really to do with Cascata itself, and whether I would like or if it was an outstanding course.

I'll bet you pay $ 125 an hour for lots of things.
Start with your dentist, doctor, plumber, copy/fax machine repairman, etc., etc..

Sadly true.  And if I didn't need to pay those bills so often, perhaps $250 for a round of golf on an unloved course wouldn't scare me so much!

[jg7236]

Jerry,

You must of went to the Mirage and played Shadow Creek on a down time in Las Vegas because I don't think at any of the MGM/Mirage Hotels consider 25K a high roller.  I think maybe your friend has some good friends that got all of you on Shadow Creek and could of possibly got you on Southern Highlands, I don't think it was his high limit bets that got you all comped golf.

Cheers,

John

[George Pazin]

Jerry,

You must of went to the Mirage and played Shadow Creek on a down time in Las Vegas because I don't think at any of the MGM/Mirage Hotels consider 25K a high roller.  I think maybe your friend has some good friends that got all of you on Shadow Creek and could of possibly got you on Southern Highlands, I don't think it was his high limit bets that got you all comped golf.

Cheers,

John

Maybe he simply told his friends that it was 25K....

Re: those greens above -

That's a pretty generic comparison. It would seem if those are considered the same, there are many many out there that would be considered the same. Given the tendency of photos to flatten out contour, it would be hard for me to conclude those are some sort of template.

That surrounding ring/berm on the Cascata green bothers me a lot more than the similarity between the two. It strikes me that good green complexes tend to be convex while lesser green complexes tend to be concave. (I guess the Punchbowl is the exception that proves the rule!) I'd say the same about fairway movement as well. I think that's why I like skyline greens so much - it's almost the antithesis of containment.

[John Foley]

Andy,

Just so you understand why I said what I said. I play 20 rounds a year. Almost all at public/resort courses where I pay my own way. No comps. For argument sakes lets say, on average, I pay $50 a round. That means my total spends for golf is $1000 a year. Changing one $50 round out and making that a $250 round increases my overall spends to $1200. For me that is well w/in my budget. For the experience I had, spending the extra $200 was well worth it for me.

I never said I didn't care for the course. I just said said that I thought the course should be better.  

[Andy Hughes]

John, thanks for the clarification.  I did not mean to put words in your mouth or imply anything.  I took what you wrote to mean that you really didn't think much of the course. You said:

As for the golf course, lets just say I needed to review my pics w/ the AOTD & scorecard in front of me to remember what I was seeing. The holes seem very repetitive and, for the most part un-memorable. There we’re a few I liked (the short up-hill #11 & the tough uphill #16) and some I just  didn’t care for (#18).
I’m not going to bash Rees and say the bunkers are boring & repetitive, the routing while OK was too much uphill then downhill all day and the greens were way too flat. That is the feeling you get. You wanted the course to offer more.

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds an like someone who was less than impressed with the course ('very repetitive', 'unmemorable', 'boring bunkers', routing..too much uphill then downhill', 'greens were way too flat').
I certainly did not mean to imply that you or anyone else shouldn't play Cascata, and if you enjoyed your day there I am truly happy for you.
I, personally, would just have a hard time reconciling all your critiques with 'it was well worth it' at $250.

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