[John Foley]

Been meaning to post these for a while and I am finally getting around to it (a nice project when it’s 5 degrees and 20 inches of snow falling on you!!) As an experience, Cascata is pretty amazing. We practically had the course to ourselves. Treated like we owned the placed with service second to none. Now granted, we we’re paying for it (and it’s not cheap!) but it never felt gratuitous.

As for the golf course, lets just say I needed to review my pics w/ the AOTD & scorecard in front of me to remember what I was seeing. The holes seem very repetitive and, for the most part un-memorable. There we’re a few I liked (the short up-hill #11 & the tough uphill #16) and some I just  didn’t care for (#18).

I’m not going to bash Rees and say the bunkers are boring & repetitive, the routing while OK was too much uphill then downhill all day and the greens were way too flat. That is the feeling you get. You wanted the course to offer more.

 There is some strategy out there and on some holes and a definite challenge off the tee (more to keep it straight, but on a few of the slight doglegs a proper shaped shot is rewarded and the improper shaped shot is punished). While not easy at all, I felt that the course would be viewed even harsher the better / lower handicap you are.  For the most part the par 3’s we’re a let down, though #4 slightly downhill, 20 mph wind in our face was all the challenge you could want.

There is also the water. They’ve got a stream that runs from the top of the property next to a few holes and through the clubhouse. On the course the water is just way out of place. As for through the clubhouse, hey remember your in Vegas!!!

For those that don’t know the course is built into the side of a mountain. I don’t remember the exact number, but it’s construction budget approached Shadow Creek’s.

Here is Scott’s AOTD w/ the routing shown.



I think w/ some movement put into the greens and less repetitive bunkering, this could have been so much better.

A few pics:

Tee shot on #1 (Par 4 - 367 yards)


Tee shot on #3 (Par 5 - 561 yards)


Approach/Green on #3


Tees shot on # 4 (Par 3 - 216 yards)


Tee shot on # 5 (Par 5 – 523 yards)


Bunker/Green on #5  


Tee shot on #7 (Par 3 - 157 yards)


Looking back towards tee on #8 (Par 4 408 yards)


Approach on #9 (Par 4 – 451 yards)


Tee shot on #10 (Par 4 –  466 yards)


Tee shot on #12 (Par 3  - 165 yards)


Tee shot on #13 (Par 4 – 469)


Approach/Green # 13


Tee shot on #14 (Par 4 – 434 yards)


Tee shot on #15 (Par 3 212 yards)


Tee shot on #16 (Par 5 508 yards)


Tee shot on #17 (Par 4 489 yards)


Approach on #17


Approach on #18

[jg7236]

John,

Beautiful pictures!  I haven't seen any up to date pictures of the course for a good while.  I was the Assistant Superintendent with Landscapes Unlimited.  The pictures bring back a lot of memories.  The course still looks good as it did when I left the property when the project was finished.  I forget what the budget was for the course, but I don't recall it being that close to the 43 million or so Shadow Creek.

Cheers,

John

[Alex_Wyatt]

What does being the only people on the course have to do with the architecture?  Perhaps we need an updated Doak scale. 10 means you would play the course on a crowded day in a five hour round. 9 means 4:45. Probably a 2 would be happy to play it alone in 2:45.  Anyway, that's what I gave Cascata.

[John Foley]

John,

I think it was someone at the club (or the caddie ) who mentioned a big number, but no where near $43M.

Alex,

Being alone on the course has absolutley nothing to do w/ the architecture, I didn't say it did.

[pdrake]

you paid to play there???  that is some nut........makes Pebble look like a bargain!

[John Foley]

Summer time weekdays they've got some deals. Guarantee a room and tee time for Cascata is way less than the same at Pebble, Pinehurst, American Club/Whistling.

[James Edwards]

Well how much is , much, and in comparison to Shadow Creek?

[Gary_Nelson]

John Foley,

What was it about #18 that you didn't like.  The aerial photo makes it look like a zig-zag par 5 where you are forced to hit three shots to get to the green.  The online scorecard says it is 546 from the black tees.

Does this hole suffer because it lacks the "getting home in 2" factor?

Thanks,

Gary

[Kelly Blake Moran]

If anyone has received a publication called : "The Best of Northeast Golf 2005" go to page 123 and compare the photo of the ad for The Ridge at Back Brook with the photo above entitled "Approach on #9 (Par 4 – 451 yards)".  It is interesting how 2 very different landscape settings could produce two greens that are almost identical.  Maybe someone who has the magazine and knows how to post the picture will do so.

By the way there is an ad for pencil sketches of famous golfers by a guy named Ron Ramsey from Bronxville, NY. Beautiful work  Does anyone know him?

[John Foley]

Gary,

The water hazard at the green was forced. As a norm I don'y like lets dig a holding pond and use it for a hazard. I do realize that they are needed, just don't put them in play.

From the tee, there is really no option, can't cut the corner and gain anything.

James,

Summer rates at Paris was $89/nite double occupancy and gree fee;s we're $250. Thats sub $300 for a round and a room. Weekends we're $500 for the green fee and there is no way it's worth that.

[DTaylor18]

James, in season, i believe that Cascata is $350 during the week and $500 on the weekends, and Shadow Creek is more limited in availability, but is $500.  Both require you stay at one of their respective properties.  

John, thanks for the great pictures!

[JakaB]

John,

Do you have a copy of Geoff Shacks The Future of Golf in America....I would like to send you a signed copy (by Barney) for being the first guy on this site to admit to paying for a round of golf and not bitching about it....Congrats and just IM me your address so I can ship the book....

[Andy Hughes]

Summer time weekdays they've got some deals

John, thanks for posting, very good pictures.
What really got my attention, though, was the quote above coupled with your saying that the round was 'only' $250.  I guess I don't get out much, but its amazing to me that a course that you aren't even keen on is a deal at $250.

[DTaylor18]

Pricing is all relative. One man's garbage is another man's treasure.  I played Shadow Creek with one of my best firends, and we each paid $500 and had a great time.  To be honest, it was worth it and i would pay it again.  Is it cheap no, but it was a bargain based on the memories.

[Andy Hughes]

Dan, I have no doubt what you said is true. Certainly the price vs. value of anything is different for each person.
And while I can't imagine paying $500 its A-OK with me if you wish to do so (though I have to admit to being amazed by that price tag--sounds like I do not belong in Vegas playing golf!)  
But c'mon, John paid $250 for a round of golf, he doesn't seem to think much of the course at all, and he considers it a deal!  

[JakaB]

I don't think you guys realize the value of an empty course....does the greenfee include transportation to and from the hotel...because if we are talking about an $89 room with transportation for a $250 greenfee on a top 300 course by yourself with excellent amenities..it's not bad....I am guessing cart and caddie are also included..

You are talking $50 an hour for entertainment in Vegas....the cut at most hold em games is above that at any level of play..

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

Great pictures of what looks to be a not so great course.  (is there a smiley face I can put here showing one of those little yellow heads sleeping?)

The talent and creativity just oozes from that man, doesn't it?

[Andy Hughes]

Yeah, but Mike, on the plus side it was a deal at $250, which John K explains is an 'entertainment' bargain for Vegas.

The world has changed, and nobody warned me!

PS I do have to say, I think the tees in John's pictures are kinda cool, the way the desert runs right up against the vivid green tees.

[John Foley]

Dan/Andy,

What I meant was that with the normal $350-$500 rate they charge getting it for $250 combined w/ the room I already needed to pay for, it was worth it to see what was there. Would I go again? Only if I won big time at the tables. Since I don't play the tables looks like it was a one time deal.

As for Shadow Creek. IMHO fromt he book, it did not look like a course I'd enjoy. Too claustrophobic. So it's easy to not spend $500 for Shadow Creek.

BTW - I liked Dye's The Wolf at Pauite much much more than Cascata.

Mike C,

I do think that routing wise, it was a better than average. However the rest of whats on the ground could have been so much better.

[Lou_Duran]

Loved Cascata.  I envy you guys who have the game and access to the courses which make Cascata, Torrey Pines-S, Shadow Creek, etc. so easy to dismiss.

Okay, some of the water features are contrived, but what in Vegas isn't?  Cascata kept my interest, certainly challenged my abilities, and it was a most welcomed respite from the hustle and bustle of every day life.  It may not be an architectural masterpiece, but it is quite an engineering feat.  Perhaps if Rees was named Seth?

[Mike_Cirba]

Lou,

I'm not dismissing Cascata because I routinely play "better" places.  I'm dismissing it because it is in a class of courses that seek to be viewed as "great" and ask us to accept that premise, at multiples of $100 to play, for pro forma architecture.  

I think my favorite Rees Jones courses are Olde Kinderhook, a rough-hewn, low-key private club near Albany, NY, Montauk Downs (although done under his dad's name), which is a $25 muni on Long Island, and Arcadian Shores, in Myrtle Beach of all places.

[Scott_Burroughs]

John,

I understand it may have been a bit toasty when you played in the summer, it's also quite hilly, and that carts and forecaddie come with the price, but are you allowed to walk if you want and catch rides on the apparent treks between holes?

[John Foley]

Scott,

A bit toasty is an understaement, try 105!

There are some tremendous long drives between holes (7-8)and a few that are right next door. And this is truly built on the side of a mountain.

It may make Plantation course look like an afternoon stroll.

If you asked to walk, I don't know what they would say.

[Matt_Ward]

What's funny about Vegas courses is that they often fall outside the "main stream" of other courses -- particularly when viewed against so-called "classic" course profile coming from the Northeast.

Frankly, I think some of the "anti" comments about western courses comes to a degree from the "nose up in the air" approach some take. Basically, it boils down to this -- well the courses in Vegas aren't like course "A" or "B" from the NYC or Philadelphia area. Even while saying that I have to say that sometimes the very issue is not the unique terrain one finds out west, but the lack of skillful imagination employed by the architect.

Cascata is truly something to see. I mean having a stream FLOW THROUGH the cluibhouse has got be one of the more enhancing elements I have ever personally witnessed. But like much of Vegas it's pure hype -- with little connected to the actual golf.

The design at Cascata, though, is simply lacking. Here you have a site with a disproportionate number of holes running in two ways -- up the hill and down the hill. A few of them are really good -- I'm a fan of the 2nd. But the incessant revisiting of this without really adding something above and beyond that becomes tiresome fairly quickly.

One of the issues that I believe has traction against Rees Jones is that he often superimposes his basic ideas no matter what the site is. After one or two holes the same act gets old. That's something he's been unable to shake and I agree with many of his consistent detractors (some of whom have never played a superior Rees effort although there are a number of them I would recommend) when this is brought up for discussion.

John F is right on target -- the service at Cascata is without peer and it's likely anyone playing the course will never encounter any slow play or other human distractions.

Is the layout worth the $$? That's something only each person can address. Frankly, I would recommend people to play in Mesquite at Wolf Creek because there you have an edgy seat-of-your-pants layout that marries the concept of what Shadow Creek initiated and that Casata tries to outdo. Only at Wolf Creek do you get the kind of thrill ride with a solid interplay of terrain and design technique.

Let me say that those who look for some sort of "classic" pattern of golf will not find much of that particular approach / style in the greater Vegas area. If you come with the mentality that golf in Vegas must be like golf in the east the best advice I can give is stay home.

Cascata is layout without much substance -- the actual site is indeed unique and worthy to see -- it's the golf component that fails to bring home the bacon. Like Vegas -- it's the show not the depth that lies at the heart of Cascata.

[pdrake]

good point on the temp in the summer..........paying over $200 to play in 100 degrees+ is not a good deal at all.

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