Has Player ever designed a good course?

[Rob_Waldron]

The Golf Channel reported on high levels of design activity by Nicklaus, Palmer (I mean Ed Seay) and Gary Player. I have played several Player "signature" designs and have yet to see course worth recommending. Am I not playing the right courses or does his firm choose not to design high quality courses?

[John Morrissett]

I have very little experience with Player courses, but Floridian is a good and fun one -- well worth playing.

[Steve Okula]

The Lost City course in South Africa rates a six on the Doak scale (see "Confidential Guide"), which I would think deserves at least a modicum of respectability even on this "biased" forum.

[John Foley]

I thought Mission Hills North was very good. Played it years ago w/ no housing and thought it was fair. Don'y know about now.

I've heard very bad things about his course at Lyman Orchards in CT.

[Joel_Stewart]

Rob:
Do you mean the Player organization?  I'm sure someone can fill us in but its my understanding Gary Player is in name only and spends very little time (if any) on the architectural side?

[John Bernhardt]

I have only seem one good Player course and it is the Five Nations Golf Club in Belgium not far fom Namur.

[Chris Hervochon]

Olde York in New Jersey is a solid test, especially for a Player course.  Some interesting holes, it's tough, on a pretty good piece of property.

[Scott_Burroughs]

We'll see this fall when the President's Cup is played at the Player-designed Links course at Fancourt in South Africa.  Here's a preview:

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Snowshoe Mountain is entirely enjoyable, if it is accepted as cart-ball.  

Is Player the least involved of the pro/architects?

[Jimmy Muratt]

I have played his Raspberry Falls Golf & Hunt Club in Leesburg, Virginia.  It's a very good public course that is usually in excellent shape.  The back 9 is far better than the front with a good mix of a couple short par 4's with multiple options and some decent par 5's.  

One thing about the course is that it's on a HUGE property, it's also a Hunt Club so they have tons of land.  This gives the course a nice feel of being out in the country all by yourselves.

[John_McMillan]

I played Player's "signature" Wolverine course at the Grand Traverse Resort in Traverse City.  After being under-whelmed with the couse, and talking some about Gary Player's designs, I got the following "book" on Player - his US designs are mostly done by underlings, but he has more on-site time on his over-seas work, and these are much better.

What I've heard from the Grand Traverse project is that it was handicapped by the need to use several of the holes from the pre-existing resort course, and some odd pieces of property that fit between the condos.  It's not a masterpiece of architecture, but it hit on the project's first two criteria - a playable alternative to the Nicklaus course, and an advertisable name attached to the course.  

[js]

Old York in NJ is OK...there are some very strange features that detract from the overall quality...like:

Hole #1- 450 yd Par 4- cart barn in play to left of fairway, a severe fall-away(trees,brush,etc) to the right of the fairway and worst of all...A STRIP OF ROUGH DOWN THE MIDDLE OF THE FAIRWAY IN THE LANDING AREA...ughh?

Player continues this feature on the back nine as well.  There is a large strip of rough in the middle of a landing area for the second shot on a par 5.

[DonJ]

There is a TPC course in Princeton, NJ called Jasna Polana that Player designed.  The Senior Tour stops there every year.  17 is nice water hole and 18 is a short par 5 with a challenging green.

[ForkaB]

The only GP course I've played is the Pacific Golf Club (27) in So. Cal.  I think he did a good job there on a difficult piece of property (side of a mountain).

Rather surprising to see so many positive comments on this thread.  Maybe Gary (or his organisation) ain't so bad after all.

[MBL]

I've wondered the same about Player organization designs (based on a sample set of - then - one).

Player org built Tapawingo GC, one of the first Country Club for a Day tracks in the St. Louis area, in the early 90s/late 80s.  Laid out on a piece of property that has veritably no transition from hilly woodlands style to FLAT, river bottom land.  The front nine meander nicely through the woodlands with decent elevation change and interesting shot value (albeit two 90-degree doglegs with ZERO strategic value).  Number 10 drops into the bottom lands which have been stylized as a "links" layout (btw, tough to create a links environment in an often sweltering, no-wind-at-all setting).  The lack of transition and dichotomy of the two preclude any kind of rythm, etc.

Interestingly, I also played recently at Raspberry Fields (mentioned above) outside DC.  Marked similarity in holes to Tapawingo, and - more notably - a surprising similar routing through woodlands and meadow (hilly/wooded to open/flatter terrain), however there is an excellent transition from hills into meadows.  The bunkering is terrific and shot value far superior to the StL track.  So I was very impressed.   My takeaway was that "Player" (and/or the organization) was getting better with age.

Then again, this is a limited sample set and therefore contains much bias.

[Rob_Waldron]

Actually I forgot about Raspberry Falls. I played it for the first time this past summer and really enjoyed it. My only complaint was the sod wall bunkers which require an enormous amount of maintenance. Most rquire replacement every three to four years. In fact several of the old sod faced bunkers at Olde York in New Jersey have ben eliminated and replaced by grass bunkers. I do not know Player's level of involvement with the designs sporting his name.  

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

I was interested in what the feedback on this thread was going to be. It is nice to see some open minds being displayed here.

I've been checking in on this site for over 2 years now, and Player has generally been ripped on this site in the past.

[Paul Richards]

Shivas:

you said:
>The Player Course at Geneva National in Lake Geneva is a >pretty good course.  I enjoy playing there.

To which, I must say I agree.

However, I have yet to play a Gary-Player design that is worthy of making a Top 100 list.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I've played 2 Player courses, the aforementioned Raspberry Falls, which I liked very much, (Careful though, fox hunter have right of way on the fairways   ) and Steele Canyon in San Diego area, which was 27 holes of overpriced and nothing special.

[hoggmeister]

I was very interested to see the answer to this question.

My firm is involved in a project in Philadelphia, the ACE conference center ( the former Eagle Lodge ) and Gary Player is the course designer. ACE interviewed Nicklaus, Palmer and Player and chose Player.They plowed under a Reese Jones course designed in 1984 and added 60 acres. It will be an upscale corporate club and plans to open in July. It will be very interesting to see the end result.

Player designed the TPC at Jasna Polana after a number of other people turned down the job. There is way too little land and the course had to be routed around the existing estate, now the clubhouse. As a result, the course is just OK in my opinion. The senior tour is not returning next year. .

I have also played the Old Yorke course previously mentioned. It was a renovation project and has a few very odd holes (like the first).The other three Player courses I remember playing have all been less than memorable.

[Bullthistle]

I must admitt that I have a bias...20 some years ago I played a Player course at Kiawah, I think it was called Marsh Harbor or Marsh Landing? It was one of the original courses on the Island. It was probably the first course I played that I really hated. It had, as I recall, two very unfair holes and a bunch of non descript holes.
I know the course has been redesigned and I am not sure what they call it today. Unfortunately, my feelings regarding Player designs are not very positive.

[John Conley]

Baytree is pretty good.

Alaqua, which I have not seen or played, draws universally bad reviews.

[Doug Wright]

Having played only one Player  course to my knowledge I'm reticent to judge but the contrast from the Nicklaus and Palmer efforts on the property was striking. All three "pro designers" have courses at Palm Coast Resort north of Daytona Beach. Player's Cypress Knoll (1991) was painful to play, boring with uninteresting shot values and greensites. I much preferred Matanzas Woods (Palmer/Seay 1986), which had much more variety though it was a bit manufactured. And Nicklaus's Grand Haven (1998) was even better, very good greensites and surrounds and a fun routing. I played there before the opening of Ocean Hammock (also Nicklaus), which some on here have praised highly.

Just my 2 cents.

[John_Lovito]

Bullthistle,

The course on Kiawah was Marsh Point, recently renamed Couger Point.  The Player group did the redesign.  They mostly just added some length and the course is no better today then it was 20 years ago when you played it.

John

[Steve Lang]

YES

While we've been intrigued by the Grand Traverse Resort Course.. since they first put up the advertising signs on M-72, we've never taken in the Wolverine, always opting to take care of perpetually unfinished business across the street at Highpointe.  

There is a new Player Course at Grand Lake near Magnolia, TX, west of Conroe, which we saw in construction, but I haven't played it or heard it hyped lately..  However, this past July at the WCC the new Player Course opened, which leads me to an unqualified yes, for is what now our favorite home course!

Player visited the WCC several times and publicly reviewed his design intentions and routings for the course.  He stressed that he was going to build the WCC course like courses in SE Asia, to deal with the significant rainfall events.  In retrospect we've only laughed at his contention that its too green in the Woodlands, not enough color, his course was going to be different.. all the course amenities so far are in black, tee posts/signs, ball washers, water stations, & tees..

Overall the Player Course at the WCC has a great variety in its holes, in length, in shotmaking options, risk/reward, in needed strength, strategy, accuracy, putting dexterity, and management requirements.  Its our favorite now because it is the easiest walk from green to tee and so far drains pretty well.  There is a small amount of topography that is deceptive, provides kick/rejection areas, and one must continually place shots correctly or be ready to be challenged.  

The only complaints are cosmetics and functionality associated with the two ditches on the back nine (imposed & mosquito farms) and one too short par 3 for the ladies.  Of note, Player was pumped for his exhibition 9 holes and shot 4 under, but not from the tips..  I beleive KJ Choi has the current course record from the black tees, at 68.

I hope the 30th Parallel Gang will take me up someday on playing the Player at the WCC.