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pdrake

Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« on: January 22, 2005, 03:42:02 PM »
US Open site since the early 1950s??  I have been following the action the first 3 days and I cannot find one redeemable value this course has..........I know the USGA wants there to be a "Bethpage on the west coast", but lets be honest, BB is a 100 times better course than TP.

George Pazin

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Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2005, 04:13:51 PM »
You may wish to reconsider your title.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JakaB

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2005, 04:59:00 PM »
PD,

What will determine if it is a bad site....Valhalla had a perfect winner with a perfect finish and it still gets bashed on this site as a poor course for a major...or even the Ryder Cup.  

pdrake

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2005, 06:36:35 PM »
I am no fan of Valhalla, but I would say it has more character, more shot values than TPines.  I guess if you are long enough and have enough room for fans/VIP you can get an open.  Lets have it at The International in Bolton, Mass......play it all the way back!  There is plenty of room in central Mass for the people too!

The USGA needed a west coast site and manufactured one...............

rgkeller

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2005, 07:14:30 PM »

The USGA needed a west coast site and manufactured one...............

The USGA needed a West Coast site that would give them a $45 million profit.

JakaB

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2005, 07:23:09 PM »
Could somebody please explain to me how we will know if it is a bad choice for the Open....Was Shinnecock a bad choice because some people think the winner was based on who got the most luck....Are the majority of British Open venues poor choices because so many one shot wonders win.....I think Torrey is a great choice and I just want to know how to know I am wrong..

note:  I was out at a little course today that serves as a front for a casino and mens club and each and every golfer thought it was a great that one day I just walked up and played the place....It is a special deal every city in the world would love to have..

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2005, 08:07:30 PM »
heck - let the USGA play my old muni up in Buffalo for the Open.  Brown fairways, bumpy greens, and polluted ponds.  

Nah - TP will work out fine.  BB was in cruddy condition and it was wonderful.

I just remembered a Public Links held at Eastmoreland in Portland, OR.  Eastmoreland was a fine course that was poorly maintained.  I played the day after the final match and it was in awesome condition and a wonderful test for the competitors.  Of course, the city couldn't maintain the standards, and the state of the conditioning fell.

My only problem with the USGA is why the heck they keep going back to Rees.  I'd love to have seen what Doak, Hanse, Weed, etc. would've done with TP.

And now I hear that they want to Rees-up (a new verb) the North course too.  Sad...

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2005, 08:16:09 PM »

And now I hear that they want to Rees-up (a new verb) the North course too.  Sad...

Dan-

I like that!  Seriously, though, just as I watch the various majors/big events where he has done work, they all look so similar; Oakland Hills, Congressional, Baltusrol, BB, East Lake, TP-S, to name several.

I know he conducts himself with class and professionalism, I don't argue with this, but I personally just wish the courses looked a little different, each a little individual in one way or another.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Nick Pozaric

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Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2005, 11:15:15 PM »
I am no fan of Valhalla, but I would say it has more character, more shot values than TPines.  I guess if you are long enough and have enough room for fans/VIP you can get an open.  Lets have it at The International in Bolton, Mass......play it all the way back!  There is plenty of room in central Mass for the people too!

The USGA needed a west coast site and manufactured one...............
Im not trying to start anything, im just curious of your views on Valhalla and whats behind them.

pdrake

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2005, 11:26:33 PM »
I would say I am neutral on Valhalla.......not a fan, not against.  It is more an anti-Nicklaus slant......I don't care for much of his work overall.    I have been to Louisville a few times and played several in the area including Valhalla.......nothing jumps out at me that is all.  It is probably due to the fact I am a member at older clubs.

Jfaspen

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2005, 08:14:37 AM »
1. Why did the USGA need a West Coast open site when they have had pebble beach for several years?  Did Tiger's super scoring in 00 effectivly make this classic track obsolete in the minds of the USGA?
2. Was Riviera ever seriously considered?  During the Nissan, it keeps players rather humble and I imagine with a USGA setup, it would only get tougher.

rgkeller

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2005, 08:43:34 AM »
No "traditional" West Coast site offered the USGA a Bethpage like profit bonanza.

Nick Pozaric

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Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2005, 09:34:19 AM »
I would say I am neutral on Valhalla.......not a fan, not against.  It is more an anti-Nicklaus slant......I don't care for much of his work overall.    I have been to Louisville a few times and played several in the area including Valhalla.......nothing jumps out at me that is all.  It is probably due to the fact I am a member at older clubs.

Thanks for your answer.

Brad Klein

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Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2005, 10:48:00 AM »
Torrey Pines-South is a bland course that wastes a great setting in that no more than a small section of a single hole or two comes anywhere close to incorporating the cliffs, and no approaches or green locations bring them into play. It is quite possibly the worst routing on a good site to be found anywhere in major American tournament golf. It's P.C. site selection, nothing more or less. I also suspect that by mid-June the Poa annua will be a major factor in the putting - worse than it is in January.

pdrake

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2005, 11:32:20 AM »
If the USGA admitted they wanted the $45+ million, I have no problem with the choice.  But, they sing this song of bringing an open "to a course of the common man".  It is a travesty.  

As said before.......I guess all you need is 7,600 yards and enough room for 30 to 40K in visitors.  Superior clubs and courses need not apply.............

JohnV

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2005, 11:46:12 AM »
US Open site since the early 1950s??

1950: Merion
1951: Oakland Hills
1952: Northwood
1953: Oakmont
1954: Baltusol

I don't know anything about Northwood but if Torrey is better than any of the rest, it can't be too bad. ;)

PThomas

  • Total Karma: -5
Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2005, 11:51:54 AM »
I think Brad Klein said it all...wasn't cheap either when I played it about 5 years ago...believe it was about $125 then.....would definitely make my Worst Value list
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2005, 12:35:09 PM »
The 1970 Open at Hazeltine was not well received and the 1969 Open at Champions was really just a gesture to Jack Burke and Jimmy Demeret.

As for the west coast, the USGA again appears to ignore Olympic Club when it has a 45 hole facility and access to Harding allowing ample parking and corporate tents.  It for some reason seems desperate to hold the Open in Southern California attempting to bring the Open to the fans as opposed to allowing the fans to come to the Open.  (People do travel to Augusta.)

 

pdrake

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2005, 01:18:14 PM »
I was referring to Northwood..........not even the 3rd best course in that town!   ;D

Lou_Duran

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Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2005, 01:41:36 PM »
Northwood is a fun course and terribly underrated.

Would Dr. Klein please expand on the routing issues at TP-S?  Perhaps Signor Naccarato, forensic golf course architect, could locate and post an early (pre TP-S) aerial or topo showing the elevation changes so that those armchair designers can have a go at it.  It would be particularly instructive if a couple of the contributing pros like Doak and Brauer could do a brief routing on the blank canvass.

I've only played TP-S three times, twice before Rees, and have enjoyed my time there.  Not that this is saying much, but it is a course that tested all of my shots.  The par 5s are pretty mundane, but for the pros, most of them are.  During the summer for the US Open, it will probably be pretty firm and fast.  With a bit of rough and some wind, it could be quite entertaining and a very acceptable test of the world's best.

Brad Klein

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Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2005, 01:59:55 PM »
Lou, in the late 1950s, when Billy F. Bell routed the golf courses, there was no California Coastal Commission telling him "no." And yet he avoided the coastline and the canyons like a drunk avoids AA meetings (make what you want of that analogy). The only other William F. Bell course I have played, Idaho Falls CC, was the single most incompetent routing I ever saw done by a "name" architect - fighting hills, forced locations for greens, etc. I conclude that William F. Bell wasted the site at Torrey Pines. He could have had you play alongside or even across the ravines on occasion. Then they planted trees like crazy, probably for erosion control, which further isolated the holes from the setting.

When Rees Jones came along for his much-heralded whatever of the golf course, as far as I can tell he actually did move two holes marginally closer to the canyon, but he also exacerbated a crossover issue on a few holes, making it really weird to walk from green to a few of the (new) back tees.

I have spent a few times out there and each time come away sad at the lost opportunity. For daily-fee golfers who pay local fees, the place is great. But that's like saying that a golf course that's well-maintained is a great golf course because it's a golf course. It offers zero in terms of intrigue, shot-making options, angles, or site-specificity.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2005, 06:05:17 PM by Brad Klein »

GeoffreyC

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2005, 02:06:58 PM »
Torrey Pines is a great site for a US Open.

Let's face it- The US Open is not about strategies and angles.  The US Open is about execution, execution, execution, gut checks and clutch putting. TOrrey Pines will provide that challenge and examine that part of a golf game as well as any other course set up like that.

Of the US Open courses I am familiar with, they play totally different then they do for members.  At Bethpage where they left the fairway widths as they were I was shocked at how many preferred places to play from are currently in the rough. The USGA forced players to play from non ideal angles to increase the difficulty.

At Shinnecock Hills it was more of the same. Played before the Open it was a nightmare.  Late this year when Mark Marchand resotred the fairway widths back to the bunkers the course was a joy to play.

These courses and courses like Winged Foot, Pebble Beach and Olympic CLub have flexibility in their setups for members and for championship play.  In the end, however, does a USGA setup really depend on the venue?  I say not so much except perhaps the great putting greens of an Oakmont or WInged Foot. Otherwise lets setup any long and difficult course and let them play.  Its better then making changes to old venues that alter their character for the sake of four days of tournament play maybe once every decade.

Let them play at Torrey Pines.  Let them go to Victoria National.  Who cares!

pdrake

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2005, 02:16:53 PM »
Mentioning TPines in the same paragraph or post with Shinnecock, Winged Foot, Oakmont, Pebble and Olympic is a big problem.  The US Open is known for tough layouts.......be them private or public.  I just do not see how TPines is a tough lay-out?  The USGA got full of themselves after the success at Bethpage.......they have ruined a great event by giving an open to a terrible layout such as TPines!

Brad Klein

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Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2005, 02:27:02 PM »
Geoffrey, you forgot the design characteristics that put Torrey Pines over the top and make it an ideal site for a National Open

-extensive parking
-corporate tent space on the North Course
-from the air, it looks like it's near water
« Last Edit: January 23, 2005, 02:27:19 PM by Brad Klein »

Matt_Ward

Re:Is Torrey Pines potentially the worst.....
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2005, 03:33:48 PM »
The USGA proves the point that sequels (ditto the movies and second acts) to first successes -- the notion in going to exceptional public courses (Bethpage Black) is now sinking to the likes with Torrey Pines.

Clearly, the USGA is now auctioning the event to the highest bidders -- give a a thumbs up to the persistent and tenacious efforts of SD's Century Club.

Like Brad said -- from the air it cuts a fine picture but there is really nothing at the South that is memorable until you return to your car and head out of the parking lot.

P.S. The only good news about the '08 event is that the '09 Open returns to the Black.  ;)