Unsolved mysteries

[T_MacWood]

Neil Crafter and Russell Talley uncovered the details of MacKenzie's Australian visit. Geoff Shackelford exposed the eccentric Max Behr. Daniel Wexler revealed anumber of lost works and architects. Ron Whitten introduced Bethpage's Burbeck.

What are some of the remaining unsolved mysteries in the history of golf architecture?

One that comes to mind: Did Raynor produce a plan for Cypress Point?

[Dan King]

How involved was Alister Mackenzie in Tijuana CC? The course now credits Mackenzie as the architect but I've never seen any documentation to support their claim. When I first played there it was a Billy Bell course but sometime in the 1990s they started calling themselves a Mackenzie course.

In a similar vein, George Thomas magically became the architect of record at Stanford. Was he really?

Dan King

Talking of two-shot holes, I recently ran across Tom Webster the cartoonist and Leo Deigel, who hailed me with the remark "Here comes old Two-Shotter." The allusion did not register and so I asked him to explain it. "Don't you remember" they said, "playing with us and Max Behr at Alwoodley? At the fourth hole you said to Max 'Here's an excellent two-shotter.' When you had both played half way you were in the rough on one side and Max on the other. You called out to him 'How many have yo had Max?' He answered 'Six, how many are you?'  'Seven' was your reply."
 --Alister MacKenzie

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dan,
As I have said before, way too many times MacKenzie has been mysteriously credited with Agua Caliente (TJCC), I actually went down there myself to see the proof they claimed they had.  

They didn't or at least couldn't come up with it.

Billy Bell is the creator of the course. I have the LA Times articles to prove it, and it was 18 back then. The people I talked to at TJ claimed MacKenzie added 9 to the existing Billy Bell 9, and from the article, that just isn't right at all.

In other words, they're claiming the course as MacKenzie is as accurate as a Tijuana Timex.....But if indeed they could prove it, then show me the money.

Tom Mac,
As we have talked about before, and in continuation of this great thread, I would like to have seen this MacKenzie & Hunter's Dana Point course if indeed it was ever built.

There have been a few people I have talked to that have suggested at one time there was a golf course in that area which was known as St. Andrews By The Sea. Later research proved that paticular course was actually St. Pedro Golf & Country Club/The Royal Palms. Still I have people that swear in the hills near Laguna--which isn't far from Dana Point--existed a immaculate prepped golf course.  

As far as the course in this article is concerned I have found information regarding the clubhouse, "which was built for the old golf course." But not one bit of evidenciary proof of the course itself has ever surfaced. If it did indeed exist, It must have been a tremendous view of what is now Dana Point Harbor.



Now another one I came up with a few weeks ago, sounds as if it was a course that was also in the making that never got built.



MacKenzie was a somewhat tall, balding and middle age man who has been known to wear a Kilt and has been known to go on wild drinking binges while singing "You take the high Road, and I'll take the low road" and "28 bottles of single-malt on the wall."

If you or anyone you know has any information regarding evidence of Dr. Alister MacKenzie in the Southern California area as well as the disappearance of these said courses, please contact (714) 803-3563.

Next on Unsolved Mysteries, the disappearance of a local New Jersey golf magazine editor and publisher who has been assumed to have been clubbed over the head and fed to the crocs in the Australian Outback.....

[ForkaB]

Good stuff, Tommy

The 1st LA Time article surely implies some more mysteries, such as:

--What happened to the "more than 400" courses that MacK designed all over the world?
--how did he manage to design 19 courses in Australia in just 60 days?

Compared to Ross or Fazio this guy was apparently THE master of mass production!

[Steve Lapper]

"Next on Unsolved Mysteries, the disappearance of a local New Jersey golf magazine editor and publisher who has been assumed to have been clubbed over the head and fed to the crocs in the Australian Outback....."

  I'm permitted to say that this mystery was solved....

   He's washed up back on the Eastern Shore of the US with a note on his back from the "outback crocs" The note seems to indicate that he was too tough, chewy and difficult to swallow. Mostly unedible they wrote!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Who is Hamilton B Hearst ?

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
Maybe you can post those pictures I sent you about that 1915 design and someone can help solve that mystery?  As we both agree, there was some very interesting work done on that golf course and no one seems to know who did it.  

There are so many "unsolved" mysteries out there.  As you know, if you take the time to study the history of almost any course, you will uncover fascinating aspects about its evolution.  

I remember this past summer we were studying an old Tillinghast design and were perplexed by two of the holes on on the one corner of the property.  The bunkering was just blah and lacked the depth and size and dramatic sculpting of all the other bunkers through out the rest of the design.  It also didn't match up with Tillies' original drawing (which we found) of the holes.  A lot of reseach went into the project and the best explaination we could come up with was that the club just ran out of money to finish the bunkering according to Tillies' plan.  In talking with Rick Wolffe and Bob Trebus, they both agreed.  We'll never know for sure and it will probably always be a mystery.  

I'm sure others can convey many examples like this.
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Where are the notes and sketches of Hugh Wilson's trip to Scotland and England?  Were they lost in the flood at the Cricket Club's clubhouse?  Or might they be with a New England descendent?  We're searching but so far coming up empty.

[Jeff_Mingay]

How good were Vernon Macan's best courses, all of which either NLE or have been dramatically altered?

Royal Colwood (1913)
Victoria, BC

Alderwood (1924)
Portland, Oregon

Langara (1925)
Vancouver, BC

California GC (1925)
San Francisco, Ca.

Gorge Vale (1927)
Victoria, BC

Shaughnessy (1959)
Vancouver, BC

I've been meaning to do more research on his original design at Shaughnessy, principally 'cause I suspect there are some golfers out there who remember the architecture of the course circa 1960 when it opened to rave reviews, including reports of dramatic fall-away greens and centre fairway hazards.

The pros criticized the course during the 1964 (?) Canadian Open, and wholesale changes followed.

[T_MacWood]

Jeff
1913 to 1959...that has to be some kind of record.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom MacWood:

I've always thought of Macan as "the last remaining Golden Age golf architect". His first course was Colwood, which opened for play in 1913. And he was still working at the time of this death in 1964.

[ian]

Jeff,

There is an article on the original Shaughnessy Heights(January 1922 - Canadian Golfer) and it has photos too.

Quick Summay of Article

-built by CPR for the hotel to use
-built on hill (Shaugnessy Heights) overlooking city and Vancouver Island. likely near the University lands
-property described as very undulating
-narrow fairways with plenty of hazards, most likely fully tree lined.
-played by Vardon and Ray
-still compared to Jericho in this article (the most major loss in BC golf - 1942)

Shaughnessy Heights has a mention in the 100 Year History of the Canadian Open book.

Scorecard
522-5, 438-5, 120-3, 488-5, 383-4, 325-4, 362-4, 150-3, 410-4
3198-37
120-3, 263-4, 370-4, 353-4 ,374-4, 312-4,130-3, 230-4, 360-4
2512-34

[Tom Dunne]

I haven't yet been able to get my hands on Colt's "Some Essays..." or Hawtree's biography, but my personal "unsolved mystery" has been in tracking down any accounts of H.S. Colt's experiences in the Netherlands and Belgium. Any clues would definitely be well-appreciated.....

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

As you know, the original Shaughnessy Heights was forced to move. The club moved out to the present Shaughnessy site in 1960.

I, too, have heard reports about the original Shaughnessy Heights course being quite interesting. But Macan trumpted the "new" Shaughnessy course as his best: interesting property along the Fraser River combined with 40 + years of designing golf courses behind him, certainly makes such a claim believable.

Doug should have fought tooth-and-nail to restore Macan's original design in preparation for this year's Canadian Open  

[RJ_Daley]

Re:Unsolved mysteries... Foulpointe!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

"Next on Unsolved Mysteries, the disappearance of a local New Jersey golf magazine editor and publisher who has been assumed to have been clubbed over the head and fed to the crocs in the Australian Outback....."

  I'm permitted to say that this mystery was solved....

   He's washed up back on the Eastern Shore of the US with a note on his back from the "outback crocs" The note seems to indicate that he was too tough, chewy and difficult to swallow. Mostly unedible they wrote!

Steve,
Did the note say anything about distance from the tips,  course & slope ratings and contact information?

Tom,
The Caves Landing saga looks to have been a most interesting one. Thomas, who no doubt had slowed down due to illness and John Duncan Dunn who for some unknown reasoning had slowed down in course design but continued on teaching and instructing the finer points of how to swing the club--both decided to collaborate on this seaside resort just north of Pismo Beach. I'm even more surprised that they did aim for Guadalupe Dunes or some of the many other areas which boast even better property. But that usually gets answered quickly when one just realizes the importance of small yacht harbor that was going to be part of the development.

Ironically, I think this area of caves landing eventually did get a golf course built on it, or at least what seems like right near the proposed Thomas/Dunne site where Desmond Muirhead designed and built the Avila Beach Golf Course.

[ian]

Jeff,

Opps, I saw "original" Shaughnessy and thought it was the Heights stuff you were looking for. My bad.

"Doug should have fought tooth-and-nail to restore Macan's original design in preparation for this year's Canadian Open"

They are not very open to suggestions, that don't come from within. And remember this course has 28 years and counting to go before it is houses. There are other things going on there that I will only talk to you off line.

In a nutshell Jeff, there is no point in restoring this with the future that awaits it.

[Sean_Tully]

Tommy:
Winters back and I am back to my research. To add to your Caves Landing info I have a mention of Peter Cooper Bryce of Santa Barbara collaborating as well.

In my research I have found some more photos of the course and new aerials that show the course and and its changes from 1949, 1951, and 1957.  I hope to find more as I have quite a bit of leads to still follow.

Those articles on Mackenzie are great!

Jeff Mingay
The following are some courses that Macan had listed in one of his advertisements in 1925:
Colwood Golf and CC
Inglewood Gand CC  >>>>
Marine Drive GC
Fircrest GC
Alderwood G and  CC
Columbia CC
Victoria Municipal
Vancouver Muni
California Golf Club
Washington G and CC
Seattle GC (consulted)
Waverley CC (consulted)
Rainier G and CC(consulted)
Vancouver G and CC(consulted)
Shaughnessy Heights GC(consulted)

Im not very familiar with Macan so some of these names might add to your list as they are most likely coming from Macan.

I also have more on Macan if you are interested let me know. Opening day yardages and handicaps per hole for ALderwood G and CC, two articles written by Macan and some of the courses he built etc.

Tully

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean, Great to hear your back on the job!  

(Your involvement here is surely missed!)

Lets talk!  Call me or I'll call you--714-803-3563

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Another mystery that I have been researching for a bit and not been able to find the answer for concerns Aronimink.

The members relocated from their original club and had Tillinghast design and build a new course for them in the teens, yet just a few years later they did the same thing, hiring Ross to do the work.

I've seen photos of the first tee next to the railway platform constructed to let the members off the train. No one seems to remember and acknowlegde this part of Aronimink's history. There must be a fascinating story behind the hiring of Tilly and then just a few years later, in effect, firing him as their architect. Why the two moves in about a seven year span, and why go to Ross when Tilly had worked for you? There definitely must have been some contentious discussions.

[wsmorrison]

Phil,

Courtesy of the hardest working photographic researcher I know, somewhere I have an aerial of the Tillie course for Aronimink.  I'll try to find it and email it to you.  If I cannot, I will contact CD on Monday if he's able to get back from Montana with all the snow we're getting.

[TEPaul]

What's going on with this thread? Is this website getting into some real censorship of some pretty damned interesting and important information that relates directly to golf archtiecture and the manner of the death of the man who created the #1 course in the world? If so why and whose being protected?

My feeling is if anyone makes a claim they put themselves in a position on here to have that claim countered and certainly by legitimate and current information. If they made a mistake in research and their claim really is countered and it becomes proven that it's countered what the hell is wrong with that?

They need to own up to some incorrect research that results in a claim they make on here and if someone like me makes a mistake in research on my counter to someone else's claim I'd need to own up to that as well.

What's going on here? Who's being protected by censorship and why?

[wsmorrison]

Sorry, Pat.  You don't like it when I agree with Tom Paul.  But I'm firmly in his camp on this one.  I don't know what raised the red flag on the contents of some of our postings.

[Steve Lapper]

"Steve,
Did the note say anything about distance from the tips,  course & slope ratings and contact information?"


Tommy,

   Nothing about that, but I did hear the crocs were most upset with his firm rear end...something about "rating apertures and talk of Foosgate eminating from one"!!!!


All in good fun!

   

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Exactly!