Advice for a new club

[Ted Kramer]

There was a meeting at my club last night and few of us were having a conversation regarding pace of play. Our club is semi-private right now, working towards becoming fully private.

There are member times blocked off from the public and pace of play really isn't an issue for the members. But once the public times  roll around pace of play becomes a BIG issue. This is a problem for us for a number of reasons, one of them being that if someone makes a tee time during public hours for the sake of checking out the course and contemplating membership, a 6 hour round isn't doing much to help generate interest.

Our course is par 70 and just under 7,000 yards from the back tees. The blue tees at about 6700 yards play quite long and difficult. I was wondering what you guys think about the following ideas . . .



How about removing all of the tee markers from the "back" and "2nd to back" tee boxes during public play? We could use ladies, senior, white, and blue tees spaced out on the remaining "front tee boxes". The whites and blues would be be on the tee box normally used for the whites, but we could offer the blues set back a bit on the same tee box for those who want the extra challenge of a few more yards.

I think that the white tees at my club offer more than enough challenge for the vast majority of the golfing public. And if someone really loves the course, and wants to play the back tees, they can, they just have to join.



Now to further speed things up I propose the following. . .

All groups will be told before their round that, ". . .5 hour rounds are the longest acceptable at our club. Proper pace of play iis an integral part of the golf experience for all guests at our club. It will be your responsibility to maintain an acceptable pace of play. And if you can not, your greens fees will be refunded and you will be asked to leave the course"

If a group falls behind they will be warned and asked to please keep up.

If they fall behind again or can not keep up, they will be asked to skip the hole that they are on and be asked again to keep up with the group ahead of them.

If they fail a 3rd time they will be asked to leave the course, and their full greens fee will be refunded in the pro-shop.

Being that we are working towards becoming a private club, I don't see the need to cater to a portion of the public that can not play a round of golf in a reasonable amount of time. The course is not a fast course to play. I am not looking for 3 1/2 or 4 hour rounds, I'm just trying to get rid of the 5 1/2 hour rounds.

I don't think we want members who play excruciatingly slow, and if we can get the course moving a little better during public hours, maybe some better players will begin to make our club their preffered place to play. And after becoming attached to the course a little bit, maybe they will decide to join.

I would be interested to hear what you guys think about these ideas. Thanks.

-Ted

[Jerry Kluger]

I used to belong to TPC Avenel and slow play was a chronic problem that was never solved.  The course played much longer than the yardage on the card so non-members tended to play it too far back.  They allowed unacommpanied guests and they were more concerned about the fees from those guests than anything else.  They also very frequently kept the golf carts restricted to the cartpaths which slowed play down for guests who did not know the course.  The solution for the members was to play very early or very late or accept the fact that you would be spending more than 5 hours on the course.  At most member clubs it is expected that you play in 4 hours or less.  If you are playing a course you are familiar with, there is no reason to take longer than that except for unusual weather conditions.

[Jason Topp]

Ted:

I don't like the idea of "falsifying" the tee markers.  I feel like I know my own capabilities and get irratated when courses mislead me.  Nonetheless I understand your concerns.  Here are a few ideas.

1.  One course I play does an effective job of setting a rule that you need to be less than a 5 handicap to play the back tees.  If there is much dissent, they point out that some of the forced carries on the course are in the range of 250 yards (a bit of an exxageration). I almost never see anyone playing the back tees.

2.  One thing I have seen certain courses do that I think makes a difference is to use rangers in an effective way.  

Most courses have rangers drive around the course and I think they make little difference in pace of play and generally have a miserable job consisting of either badgering slow players or being badgered by others complaining about slow play.

One course I play, has rangers stationed at regular trouble spots on the course.  They act as forecaddies and speed up play by greatly reducing the time and backup associated with searches for balls.  At the same time, they can monitor pace of play and provide the right amount of encouragement.  

3.  If you have a cart path only rule, I've seen articles indicating that adds a 1/2 hour to a round.

4.  Tee time spacing makes a pretty big difference.  If you are not concerned about the revenue, I would space the times by at least 10 minutes, maybe more.

5.  Course layout has a lot to do with pace of play.  You should figure out a reasonable time for playing your course.

6.  Consider a refund of $10 on greens fees if a group finishes within the pace you would ideally like to see.  This will cause a fair amount of self policing by customers rather than requiring badgering from marshalls.

I recall seeing a pretty good article by a consultant that addresses these issues in either Golf or Golf Digest.  I suggest you search their web sites under "Pace of Play and you may find it.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Avenel hasn't had a speed of play problem for 3-4 years now.  Walking is now allowed anytime (with Kangoo Caddies), the condition is consistently better and the management is focused on the membership.  It is a different place then when you were there Jerry.

JC

[ChipRoyce]

Ted;
I think the first cause of the slow play eminates from this:

*****
All groups will be told before their round that, ". . .5 hour rounds are the longest acceptable at our club. Proper pace of play iis an integral part of the golf experience for all guests at our club. It will be your responsibility to maintain an acceptable pace of play. And if you can not, your greens fees will be refunded and you will be asked to leave the course"
******

5 hours for a round of golf is completely absurd in my opinion, private or public. I'd reccomend that you set this at 4 hours 15 minutes (allowing for a 15 min. fudge factor). I can't imagine your membership would allow a round any longer than 4:30 and the public should be held to similar standards.

[Adam_F_Collins]

6.  Consider a refund of $10 on greens fees if a group finishes within the pace you would ideally like to see.  This will cause a fair amount of self policing by customers rather than requiring badgering from marshalls.

This one is very interesting. The way I see it, pace of play is somewhat tied to expense - at least the people fighting the system in an effort to "get their money's worth". This kind of financial incentive to keep pace is interesting - I wonder how many clubs have tried it - and with what level of success?

[A_Clay_Man]

Ted,
I concur that deciding which markers to play, should be up to the individual. A strong recommendation, at the point of contact, should solve most of your problems. Also, I'd suggest a non-verbal form of communication, from on-course personel. Having a Marshal "speak" to a group, is counter-productive. Make sure everyone is told what's expected of them, and those who choose not to follow the protocol, should be asked their names, their names placed on a list, and only allowed a return visit after much grovelling.

p.s. Pro-rate any refund. "REFUND? REFUND?" ( Breaking Away)

[Philip Gawith]

Ted - I think your idea about reducing the number of tee options is a good one. Many older courses in the UK - where I am based - do not have so many different tees anyway, and it does not seem to detract in any fundamental way from the enjoyment of the round. Admittedly, this attitude can be irritating when taken to an extreme - quite a few clubs do not allow visitors to play from the "tips" - but if the choice was between 5-6 hour rounds and curtailing the tee options, that is no choice!

When I was admitted to my club, the secretary made clear at the end of the first paragraph that the club prided itself in 18 holes taking 2.75 hours (for a two-ball - it is a two ball, walking club!). Admittedly the course is quite short, but playing 18 holes in three hours or under is hugely pleasurable.

[Brent Hutto]

2.  One thing I have seen certain courses do that I think makes a difference is to use rangers in an effective way.  

Most courses have rangers drive around the course and I think they make little difference in pace of play and generally have a miserable job consisting of either badgering slow players or being badgered by others complaining about slow play.

One course I play, has rangers stationed at regular trouble spots on the course.  They act as forecaddies and speed up play by greatly reducing the time and backup associated with searches for balls.  At the same time, they can monitor pace of play and provide the right amount of encouragement.  

At my club on busy days, occasionally one of the pro-shop staff is sent out to eliminate a bottleneck. One Saturday this summer the foursome I was in had two holes open ahead of us after playing three holes (yes we were that slow, no it wasn't me) and an assistant pro showed up to do something about it. On the fourth and fifth holes he raked bunkers, fixed ballmarks, forecaddied on tee shots, carried our clubs to the next tee while we were putting and just generally busted his ass for 20 minutes. We arrived at the sixth tee about 30 seconds after the group ahead cleared the fairway and stayed caught up the rest of the day. A couple of the other guys in the group thought that was a bit annoying but I thought it was great. Then again, I'm acutely aware of pace of play and find it really distracting to fall behind. Getting caught up in two holes was worth rushing a bit.

3.  If you have a cart path only rule, I've seen articles indicating that adds a 1/2 hour to a round.

4.  Tee time spacing makes a pretty big difference.  If you are not concerned about the revenue, I would space the times by at least 10 minutes, maybe more.

Carts on paths only, especially when there are wide fairways or the cart paths are set well back from the fairway, is not compatible with eliminating slow play. There's no reason it should take 6 hours but you can only pick two of the three from: a) riding, b) no carts on fairway, c) good pace of play. On our course which is hilly and with sometimes awkward access from cartpath to certain fairways or greens a carts restricted to paths adds way more than 30 minutes to a foursome of 10-handicappers.

I definitely agree about tee time spacing. Depending on the course, 9 minutes can work but I'd think 10 minutes should be no problem most anywhere.

[Ted Kramer]

Thanks for the comments.
I appreciate your advice.

-Ted

[Eric Pevoto]

Ted,

If Golf Association of Philadelphia has rated your golf course, with a phone call they can provide you with a USGA pace rating.  This is a good start for setting any pace goals.  Doug and Dave do an outstanding job and can be a great help.

Eric

[Sean_A]

Ted

I also think a big part of slow play is everybody holing out.  A major reason for quicker play in the UK is due to Stableford and Matchplay.  

Philip

I think a 2.75 hour game is very quick for a two ball, but certainly not impossible.  Our club has a guideline of 3:45 for 4 ball (most groups finish in 3.5), 3:20 for 3 ball and 3:05 for 2 ball.  I like a 3:20 pace no matter the number of players.

Ciao

Sean

[Nick Pozaric]

". . .5 hour rounds are the longest acceptable at our club"

Dont focus on negative, focus on postive and tell them what your targeted round should be.  We tell our golfers that we expect them to play in 4:15.  Have your course be time rated by the USGA, that will help by knowing what they say

[JBergan]

When I played at Great Gorge a few years ago, they used "pace of play" tees.  The tees eliminated whatever forced carry was required on the hole.  They were placed at the beginning of the fairway, so you might have to play a 400 yd hole as a 275 yd hole.

If you fell a hole behind the group in front of you, you'd have to play from the pace of play tees until you re-established your position on the course.

Another idea (which would cut into the club's $$) would be discount coupons for future rounds if you finish within a certain time, i.e. the faster you play, the less you pay next time.

[Don Dinkmeyer]

I haven't see this yet in the thread - what is the spacing between tee times?

Often too close can clog up the course more than one might think. A viable experiment is to expand from, eg, 8 to 10 minutes apart and see what happens.

YMMV and would be glad to hear how this works out.

[Don_Mahaffey]

My silly opinion, but if you want to go private why don't you just pony up and do it? The fees will go down as membership grows. I've seen too many courses spend years claiming to be on the way to going private to ever join a semi with the hope that someday it will be private. Just my opinion, but your either private, or not. There is no in between and trying to attrack members when your not a club is a tough deal.

[JBergan]

I haven't see this yet in the thread - what is the spacing between tee times?

Often too close can clog up the course more than one might think. A viable experiment is to expand from, eg, 8 to 10 minutes apart and see what happens.

YMMV and would be glad to hear how this works out.

I'm sure Ted can answer with more certainty, but I'm pretty sure his course (Pine Hill, IIRC) has ten minute tee time intervals.  

The pace of play problems at Pine Hill, as I see it, can be attributed to:

1.  Forced carries on almost every hole

2.  Public golfers with the "I just paid $125 so nobody is going to tell me how fast I have to play" mentality; and along the same lines, "I just paid $125 to play so I'm going to "see the whole course""

3.  Long distance from green to the next tee

4.  Public golfers who are not good enough to play there but go anyway because they've been told it's just like Pine Valley

Does anyone remember the cart clocks at Blue Heron when it first opened?  They didn't last too long.

[DTaylor18]

JBergan is right on.  Mike Sweeney and I made the mistake of walking the course last June.  Perhaps the toughest course i've ever walked.  That day at least, it was cartpath only.  In addition, as JBergan said, a tough course with some forced carries, a lot of up and down, and very long green to next tee rides.  It was a difficult course, where playing the right tees is critical.  I don't know what hte proper amount of time to paly a round there is, but no way would i make Pine Hill a candidate for a quick round, even if the course is empty.

[Ian Dalzell]

All groups will be told before their round that, ". . .5 hour rounds are the longest acceptable at our club."

Ted - that is tooooooo long.  4 hours and 15 minutes should be the max, and if they are unable to di it, then ask them to leave with a refund.  

This is one of those club issues where you have to take a stance - I firmly believe the members/public may get irritated at the beginning, but will come to respect your stance on this issue and understand that if they are headed to the club they will be able to play 18 holes in less than 5 hours!  Use your golf staff (not rangers but Assistants and even your Head Pro) to assist groups who have lost their position on the course.  Raking traps, forecaddying, tending the flag is all part of what my staff and I do to help alleviate the problem.

Take the testosterone tees off on busy days and don't be scared to make an example of somebody if they are holding up your whole course.  A reputation as a fast-moving course is a desirable status!

Good luck.

[Don Dinkmeyer]

At 10 minute intervals, it certainly isnt the spacing. Forced carries and entitlement would certainly be better suspects.

I haven't see this yet in the thread - what is the spacing between tee times?

Often too close can clog up the course more than one might think. A viable experiment is to expand from, eg, 8 to 10 minutes apart and see what happens.

YMMV and would be glad to hear how this works out.

I'm sure Ted can answer with more certainty, but I'm pretty sure his course (Pine Hill, IIRC) has ten minute tee time intervals.  

The pace of play problems at Pine Hill, as I see it, can be attributed to:

1.  Forced carries on almost every hole

2.  Public golfers with the "I just paid $125 so nobody is going to tell me how fast I have to play" mentality; and along the same lines, "I just paid $125 to play so I'm going to "see the whole course""

3.  Long distance from green to the next tee

4.  Public golfers who are not good enough to play there but go anyway because they've been told it's just like Pine Valley

Does anyone remember the cart clocks at Blue Heron when it first opened?  They didn't last too long.

[Doug Siebert]

I agree with the others saying that allowing 5 hours is way too long.  Its also way too lenient to give them three warnings before kicking them off, but giving them a REFUND after that is ridiculous.  Why give them their money back?  Give them nothing!  I've always said that if I owned a course I'd kick people off if they played too slow, no refunds.  The slow players would hate the place and wouldn't come back, but word would get around among people who liked to play in a reasonable time and the problem would be self-correcting.

I really like the "pace of play tees" idea!!!  If a group falls a hole behind, tell them they have two holes to catch up.  If they don't, make them play from the front tees until they do.  They will whine and scream, but if they are told that policy before they start, they have no recourse.  If they don't like it, they have to come back.

Best of all, potential members will see your club is serious is about combatting slow play so those who like to play at a good place will be more likely to join, and those who like to play like snails will be less likely.  And since you want to go private eventually anyway, who cares if you piss off some people and lose their repeat play?  Their grumbling to their friends might gain some new customers when they hear about a place they can play in four hours.

As for the $10 refunds, while it is a good idea in theory, I'd really get pissed if I took longer than the required time and didn't get my refund, because the group in front of me decided they'd rather "pay that extra $10 and enjoy their day at their own pace".  You know it would happen.  It'd happen even if you refunded $100, the kind of guys who drop a $100 tip on the beer cart girl on the 2nd tee and tell her to be sure and stop by every hole and have hundreds or thousands of dollars in bets changing hands during the round aren't going to hurry along just to earn a refund, and aren't going to care if the groups behind them are pissed off.