In Praise Of Joe Six-Pack

[Mike Hendren]

To all,

Quit picking on my peeps.

Mike

[JakaB]

Mike,

What do you think the role of Jose Nacho is in the future of golf...

[frank_D]

brother Mike_Hendren

HERE ! HERE !

i've concluded that if a point is to be made by some here it is usually in the negative - which is the connotation the name implies - what is lost in this straw man debate tactic is there is only ONE type of golfer which dominates the REVENUE generating side - and that is the AVID golfer (READ - makes the game by supporting it) - otherwise the SELF PROFESSED CONNOISSEUR CLASS (SPCC) would NOT have a game to critique

if ALL avid golfers turn out to ALL be SPCC members then i am wrong - but i never saw that a Joe Six-Pack couldn't be an expert judge of a course OR take it for granted that the SPCC membership entitled one to know what their talking about

i've been in the position to ask homeowners / club members at some of the most prestigious clubs about the architect / architecture / etc of their club (so i have some direct experience in this) - even with club members serving on various committees relating directly to the maintenance and upkeep of the course itself ! [to keep this non-personal think seinfeld and RIO BOCA VISTA episodes]

on a more practical example - most of the top world pro players today come from (or in prior years came from) the Joe Six-Pack environments - don't they ? or conversly look and Davis Love or Phil Michelson

similarly i don't know of many, if any, architects that came from other than the Joe Six-Pack beginnings either - and those that amassed wealth usually derived it from other than golf, no ?

[maybe i shouldn't have commented so soon after watching the inauguration]

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike,

I have the same feeling you do......nothing wrong with Joe Six Pack.....in many ways THEY are the game.

On another thread there was a debate about whether Bandon was "affordable".

It got me thinking: I know many people who own a color TV, a VCR, a home PC, etc., but I haven't met very many people who have played at Bandon or Kohler or Pebble Beach or travel to Scotland or Ireland.

It's a small minority that have done those things (a minority I'm happy to be in!), but most of the guys just don't get to do that and they ain't all bad.

[frank_D]

brother Tim_Weiman

i guess the GOOD NEWS is - at least we're only talking economics anymore - or at least one would hope so

maybe other posters here simply do not know of or remember golf's dirty little secret of - well - lets just call it "selective inclusion" (still exists - no longer secret (READ - skokie / ANGC / etc))

only a relatively few years ago NO one joined a club for a course's "architecture" anyway -where i come from each person joined a GOLF club based on ethnicity NOT architecture - i've never heard of a jew or catholic or protestant etc joining a club because of that club golf courses "architecture" - and the black person's ONLY option was a "muni" regardless of the money they had

thinking about it - i still don't know anyone who joined a club based on the course "architecture" as the formost factor, do you ?

that's why i suggest AVID / OCCASIONAL as a more apt description - as in Joe Avid or Joe Occasional

[Matthew Schulte]

frank_D:

I would certainly think that for the original group of members of Sand Hills, architecture factored in quite heavily.  I appreciate that many of those original members had the foresight to understand the value of belonging to a club that would provide an escape from the hustle and bustle of their daily lives.  However, I think they mainly joined because it offered world class architecture and a very different brand of golf (i.e. firm and fast conditions and fairly constant wind) than they could find closer to home.  

[Mike Hendren]

Matthew,

I submit that Sand Hills might have the EXACT membership had Fazio designed the golf course.  That is not to say that the course would be as good or better, or that the membership lacks a discerning architectural eye.

Possible?

Tim,

I had a gracious invitation to join three GCA stallwarts at Bandon Dunes in June to play all three courses and had to decline.  When time AND money are factored in, it's not affordable for me - not this year anyway.

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Frank D,

i guess the GOOD NEWS is - at least we're only talking economics anymore - or at least one would hope so

maybe other posters here simply do not know of or remember golf's dirty little secret of - well - lets just call it "selective inclusion" (still exists - no longer secret (READ - skokie / ANGC / etc))

I'm not familiar with Skokie, but what selective inclusion exists at ANGC ?[/color]

only a relatively few years ago NO one joined a club for a course's "architecture" anyway -where i come from each person joined a GOLF club based on ethnicity NOT architecture -

That's not true.
Maybe the place that you come from isn't so nice.
Many people have joined, and continue to join clubs because the golf course/architecture is great.[/color]

 i've never heard of a jew or catholic or protestant etc joining a club because of that club golf courses "architecture
I have.  And it's not as rare as you would lead us to believe.[/color]

" - and the black person's ONLY option was a "muni" regardless of the money they had

thinking about it - i still don't know anyone who joined a club based on the course "architecture" as the formost factor, do you ?  Yes, I do.[/color]

that's why i suggest AVID / OCCASIONAL as a more apt description - as in Joe Avid or Joe Occasional.

I've always associated references to Joe Sixpack as the everyday man, and not in an exclusionary sense, as you choose to view him.  Most references made by others regarding Joe Sixpack weren't complimentary and I find that elitist.
I recently took Matt Ward to task for refering to golfers in a derogatory sense, through the use of the phrase, "Joe Sixpack".  But, I never viewed the term in the context of ethnicity or religion, until you stated your above views.

The everyday golfer consists of the entire spectrum of
individuals playing the game and shouldn't be viewed in any specific identifying context.

Are you aware of the composition of the membership at Rio Boca ?[/color]

[SPDB]

Many people have joined, and continue to join clubs because the golf course/architecture is great.[/color]

Pat -
How do you reconcile that statement with one you made on the Knee Socks thread:

And, can you name just 10 people who did so, and the clubs they joined, just for golf ?

Which is it? Do people join a club for the golf course or not?

What's "Rio Boca"  

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

There's no conflict in the statements, unless you want to take them out of context and eliminate the core issues being discussed.

One dealt with someone declaring that ethnicity was the primary driving force behind joining a club, and that NOONE joins a golf club for the golf course/architecture.  
They asked if anyone could cite a situation where a member joined a club primarily for the golf course/architecture, which is what I've done on occassion, and what some of my friends have done as well.

The second question was in the context of dress code and conduct and in response to the declaration by someone that "many people join clubs to play golf, not to uphold traditions and be gentlemen."  To which I responded, then why would the club be foolish enough to entertain their application ? And, can YOU name just 10 people who did so, and the clubs they joined, just for golf ?

Perhaps you overlooked the qualifying text and the gist of the threads that prompted these posts.

With respect to Rio Boca, reread Frank D's posts.

Let me know if I can be of further help.

[George Pazin]

Not too sure where to start....

I'm a fan of Joe Six Pack - Lord knows, he is all over Pittsburgh. My experience is that Joe Six Pack has a good heart.

Contrast this with my experience as an ex-patriate in NYC: surprise surprise, little or no difference. Maybe some slight differences in attitude, certainly some big differences in outward appearances, but most NYers have good hearts, too.

I think people are people, the world over. Most generalize too much when ascribing attributes to races, genders, religions, whatever.

I'd guess the vast majority of members of ANGC, Sand Hills, Cypress Point, Seminole, Pine Valley, wherever, just plain love golf.

Just like you and me.

[A_Clay_Man]

It's really a strange feeling when you agree with Pat, but, I would think no one would join a club, that is perceived to have poor golf course architecture.  

Good thing for that big world.

One other aspect that has not been touched on in this thread, and that is that we all have probably at one time or another been Joer Sixpack.

It should be worn with a badge of honor, as it implies some magnetic inexpicable connection. A force that is rather addictive for such a simple game.

[Mike Hendren]

I am Sparticus!

[SPDB]

Perhaps you overlooked the qualifying text and the gist of the threads that prompted these posts.

No, I didn't. I was merely inquiring if there was an rational explanation for the inconsistency. I think your post fairly summed up the answer to my mind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Feel free to continue to take any statements out of context, as you did those two.

Henceforth, I will stick by my original plan.

[paul cowley]

 ....quite frankly,  Joesixpack is the find of person I try to design for.....I feel if I can I can build a course that the largest common denominator can enjoy and still be challenged by, then the upper echelon will be placated as well [think Ballybunion].

 Its great to see a person with little or no golf achie knowledge  respond to and enjoy good design ......... which to me is much more enjoyable than listening to a knowledgeable elitist prattle on about golf [internet elitists excluded of course!]

[Casey Wade]

I like Joe Sixpack for the main reason of THEY PAY MY SALARY!!!!!

[Lou_Duran]

I am not sure that such a person exists.  Certainly, most of us do not identify ourselves accordingly.  Typically, this guy is spoken about in a perjorative sense- can't break 100; doesn't fix ball marks, replace divots, or rake traps; couldn't care less about the environment, the traditions of the game, or personal hygiene for that matter.  He is the guy who plays excruciating slow, and spends more money on beer and riding carts than on green fees, lessons, and equipment from the course's pro shop, combined.  In other words, he is low margin-high maintenance.

I wish that everyone would take Casey's attitude about his customers.  But, who really gets the great customer service at most clubs?  Those who spend freely and tip large.  Generally, Joe Six-Pack does not.

Does the golf industry really want more rounds played?  I often get the impression from talking to GMs, pros, and superintendents is that they would actually prefer much richer margins and lower volume.  For a private course, the member who plays once or twice a month, but gambles and drinks heavily in the 19th hole.  In the public sector, the guy who plays at peak times, rides, has several beers and buys a couple of sleeve of balls (certainly not the guy in bermuda shorts and white knee socks with red stripes, who brings his own pull cart, a ball retriever, and a cooler full of Pearl-Lites).

 

[frank_D]

brother Patrick_Mucci

it has come to my mind that you may NOT have seen my initial post on this topic and only reacted to the second post BUT -

i think you would agree that ethnicity WAS and continues to be a MAJOR factor to joining a club, no ?

i do maintain that a relatively few years ago it was the OVERRIDING factor since clubs simply were NOT PRONE to accepting individuals other than "their own kind" - this joining for the architecture of the course is a relatively recent matter in the historical picture of things - yes today it matters to some BUT previously the individual simply had NO choice (i would like to hear from ANY black person here what club they belonged to and say it was for the architecture ! without laughing !)

i DO associate the "joe sixpack"  as the "everyday man" - i don't see in what i've posted PRIOR that indicates my view to him as it relates to the ethinicity issue

BUT i would repeat that when the "joe sixpack" label comes up here it seems to have a negative connotation - as you agree by stating references "weren't complimentary"

as for specific identifying context - my suggestion was to a more frequency defined golf label as AVID or OCCASIONAL or a type as LEISURE or TRAVELER or CLUB or RESORT as descriptions of a golfer - deleting all reference to non-golf related definitions

as for Rio Boca - i am NOT aware of the membership composition and have agreed that clubs do exist for golf alone but that these are recent phenomena - but from what i gather of posts to you from others on this site (and i will say in advance i do not know the context of those posts) a non-traditionalist would find it uncomfortable to be a member (which is selective inclusion by peer pressure)

i will find the Skokie CC(donald ross) PGA Tour news release and related articles and respond to you    [Skokie CC was replaced by Stonebridge CC as the 1991 Senior Open due to tour site requirements regarding host club membership policy]

as for ANGC see Lee Elder's references available on the web