Pine Tree - Words of Wisdom?

[Scratch_Nathan]

Thanks to a friend, it looks like I'm going to have the chance to play Dick Wilson's Pine Tree in about a month.  While I know I can get the skinny from him, I'd love to hear some opinions on the course from any GCA volunteers.  What are some design details that I don't want to miss?

I've read in "Golf's Magnificent Challenge" that RTJ Sr.'s opinion was that Pine Tree is perhaps the best flat-site golf courses in America.  Of course that's an old book and old quote but I've seen very few pictures and I've never heard a review of the course or read what makes it worthy of it's excellent reputation.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Like most of Dick Wilson's courses, Pine Tree is well bunkered.  The best advice I can give is to miss it long rather than short.  There are some quick putts past the hole but for some reason people tend to come up short at Pine Tree.  Up and down, however, is not to difficult.  It is a very good course, but not great.  You should have fun.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Williamsen,

How does a course that's been consistently ranked in the top
100 since it's inception not get considered great ?

Is there a weak hole on the golf course ?

Scratch Nathan,

When will you be there ?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Patrick Mucci,
I have not played Pine Tree for five or six years. I remember that I thought the greens complexes were very good.  I did not, however, enjoy playing the course.  I can remember a few of the hole but mostly I remember wanting to be finished playing.  I don't understand it s high ranking.  I must have missed something.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Williamsen,

That's always possible, and a reason why it's important to play a golf course a number of times, if it's practical.

Was your desire to flee the golf course related to your game, or your perception of the golf course, on that particular day ?

I'm certainly biased, but, from those I know who have played Pine Tree for the first time, most rave about the golf course.
Are you sure we're talking about the same club ?

[rgkeller]

Get used to hitting to raised greens surrounded by bunkers.

[John Kirk]

I played Pine Tree for the first time last March.  I thought it was a very nice and classy experience.  A simple, strightforward layout.  A nice clubhouse where we enjoyed a beverage after the round.  The course has a storied past, and I'm sure that's worth a tradition point or two on the Golf Digest ratings.

It's very flat, and it's surrounded by houses, and I have a tough time calling any flat course surrounded by houses great.  I remember the back nine more vividly.  13 is a nice little three, surrounded by bunkers.  14 and 15 are parallel fours with a lake on the left, and 18 is a very nice finishing hole.

Based on my understanding of the Doak scale, I think the course is a 6 (A very good course, definitely worth a game if you're in town, but not necessarily worth a trip to see), and the fine service and understated elegance of the club made for a fine day of golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

jmkirk,

How do you rate Garden City Golf Club, Old Marsh and Doral ?

Winged Foot, Quaker Ridge, Maidstone and Westhampton ?

Flat ?  Surrounded by houses ?

[jim_lewis]

I play Pine Tree 2-4 each winter and find it to be a very strong course, especially when the wind is up. There are many very good holes. The only hole that may be considered weak is the 10th, a short par 5. Most single digit handicappers can rach it easily in two shots. From the white tees, it could be a strong par 4.

Don't be misled by reports that it is a flat course. The fairways are very flat, but most of the greens are raised with front bunkers. Unless you are a fairly long hitter, you will need to hit your middle irons high and crisply to clear the bunkers and keep the ball on the greens. I am a short, low ball hitter, so I have a tough time hitting many of the greens. I have bought a 9-wood specifically for that course and I call it my Pine Tree club. I look forward to using it when I go down in February. If that doesn't work, I'll see if I can find an 11-wood for next year! There has to be an equipment solution to my problem.

The dining room may be the best restaurant in the county.

[jim_lewis]

One other thing. In recent years trees and large shrubs have been allowed to grow along the perimeter so that many of the houses are now out of sight. Houses are not nearly the distraction they were several years ago.

[John Kirk]

Patrick,

Unfortunately, I have never played any of the seven courses you have listed.  I would certianly love the opportunity to play Maidstone and Quaker Ridge.  If I get the chance to attend the GCA get together this spring at Hidden Creek, I am going to try to arrange a game at Winged Foot through my home club.  One of the young guys who worked last summer at our club qualified for the U.S. Amateur last year; he thinks Winged Foot is the greatest golf course he's ever seen.

It so happens the fellow who hosted us at Pine Tree is a member at Garden City.  But I don't know him well enough to contact him.

The pictures on the GCA website seem to indicate that the houses around Winged Foot, Maidstone, and Garden City are further away and less obtrusive than the houses at Pine Tree.  And Maidstone certainly appears to have more contour.

I live on the west coast, and have limited contacts throught the country that would allow me to play the classic eastern courses.  I have no doubt that these courses you mention are wonderful places to play.  Of the ones you mention, I think I would like Maidstone, or perhaps Garden City best.

However, I believe that the truly complete test of golf should include not only uneven lies, but uphill and downhill shots that force the golfer to gauge elevation change.  It should also test his ability to play in differing wind conditions.  A flat course does not test this ability.

Although I have deep respect for the golden age of golf architecture, I believe today's great architects, who have studied the work before them, are now creating the second wave of great American courses.  It is their work that thrills me.

Also, classic "old money" clubs are unattainable for someone like me.  I'm not a blue blood, and I don't have big businesss connections.  Great new clubs are looking for younger (46) members like me, who are passionate about the game and how it should be played.   As I grow old, I'd like to feel I helped establish one or more of the great modern courses.

Wow, my GCA manifesto!

To answer your question Patrick, I'm sure you're right, and there are great flattish courses in the country.  But they have the limitation of not testing one's ability to judge elevation change.  I thought Pine Tree was good, not great.

[Scratch_Nathan]

Jmkirk -

Can you tell me some details of the "storied past" you speak of?  I love the historical backstories.

Thanks to everyone who has piped in so far.  Any standout holes, folks?  

[John Kirk]

Here's the description of Pine Tree from an old version of Golf Digest's "100 Greatest Golf Courses...And Then Some":

"In 1962 Ben Hogan drove from Palm Beach to Delray Beach to see if Dick Wilson's Pine Tree course was as good as he had heard it was.  Accompanied by three playing partners, a gallery of 15 people and a very anxious Wilson, Hogan, obviously releshing many of the finesse shots he was required to play, was around in 73, one over par.  He promptly told Wilson in so many words that Pine Tree was the course he ever played.  The fact that some persons question whether it is even Wilson's best course is no reflection on Hogan's judgement - or on Pine Tree - but rather indicates how good an architect Dick Wilson was.  At Pine Tree he designed a layout with one sound hole after another, and the only criticism of it usually is that the high-handicap player finds it a bit too demanding.  But the good players love it, which may explain why the club's rolls include such noted names as Ed Tutwiler, Dale Morey, Bill Hyndman, and even Sam Snead himself, who holds the course record of 63.  The course was opened in 1962, and the only changes have been to extend the 10th to a par 5 and shorten the 12th to a par 4.  It was first class from the start."

The course isn't dead flat.  The approach to #12 is downhill to a lake, and back uphill to the green.  The day I played, the pins were tucked away in little corners of the greens.  And the greens were in great shape the day I was there, fast and true.  

[Scratch_Nathan]

jmkirk -

Thanks for the great post.  Love it.  SN

[Rob_Waldron]

I have had the opportunity to play Pine Tree on several occasions with one of its founding members and long time Golf Digest Panelist Chuck McCallum.

Despite the property's relative lack of elevation, most of the approach shots are played to well bunkered elevated greens. I can not recall being able to run up any approaches. Wilson did a wonderful job laying out the course. There is a great mixture of direction of holes and the strategic incorporation of water and sand create quite a challenge.

Be sure to take time to speak to "Charlie" the long time "Keeper of the Keys" to Pine Tree. Charlie has been there since Day 1 and can provide you with an intimate history of the club.

A good hint when playing Pine Tree is to play at least 1/2 to a full club more into each green. At Pine Tree, most of the trouble is short!

[Ed_Baker]

I've had the pleasure of playing Pine Tree quite a bit over the years. Although I have not played it since the "renovation." The membership is terrific, I've been treated to some world class hospitality over the years and they have their share of "characters." The "big" member-guest in the Winter is an absolute blast. The "Augusta like " clubhouse is under stated elegance to the max, all the golfer friendly amenities without arrogance or pretension, really well done.

As I get older, I don't try and reach a lot of the par 4's anymore because it's a long day at the beach if you're short and as has been noted the elevation of the greens does add a club to approaches. I love the routing and the diversity of the holes, great use of angles,mis-direction, water,sand, green site mounding, and actually if you can hit the "ladies aid" from 200 with a fairway wood, it is possible for a few run up approaches.

There is a par 3 on the front side with a great 1 club deep green, have to be really precise with the distance, a 600 plus yard par 5 on the back, and the wind is always a factor, in fact, I don't think it has a weak hole.

In my opinion, Pine Tree is an architectural icon, it could have been a very ordinary golf course on that flat site and it most definitely is not, it requires thought to play decently, and all the shots, all the time, to play it well, isn't that the mark of a great course?

Words of wisdom? Enjoy the experience, it is one of golfs best experiences.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jim Lewis,

Originally,# 12 was a par 5 from further back, but it was discovered that the back of the tee was not on Pine Tree property and the hole was shortened and a huge fica/banyan planted on the back of the current 12th.

I believe that the 10th was a par 4 and was converted to a par 5 to offset the loss of par at # 12.

Today, # 10 plays as a par 4 and a par 5 depending on the tee location.

JMKirk,

Pine Tree gets great variety in the winds as do most Florida golf courses, and, they tend to be pretty strong, making them a major factor at Pine Tree and other near coastal golf courses.

You're not going to get much in the way of elevation changes in South Florida, and quite frankly, I don't see elevation changes as the sole or primary determinate for superior architecture.

Would you relate to me your concept of lack of elevation changes equalling inferiority in the context of St Andrews, TOC.  Would you classify this course as being unable to present a complete test due to its lack of elevation changes ?

It lacks uphill and downhill shots that force the golfer to gauge elevation changes, which you feel is an important factor.

Under that criterion, I don't think you'd like many of the great links courses of the UK

Since 1996 Pine Tree has been screening the golf course from the nearby homes.  In many cases, they are no longer visible.

When you play the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 12th, 13th 16th, 17th and 18th holes at GCGC the homes are clearly visible, some far more then others, yet GCGC remains a great golf course.  Winged Foot, Westhampton and others are likewise crowded by adjacent homes.  Your criteria should be consistent, to be objective.

Rob Waldron,

Charlie is great, and you've provided excellent advice.
An additional 1/2 to full club will greatly reward most golfers.
Getting past the mid-point of most greens eliminates many bunkers, although, holes like # 2, 8, 12, 13, and 15 are the exceptions.

It's clearly an aerial golf course.
There are holes that accomodate run-ups, but they're the exception, not the rule, and most of the run-up areas are to a corner of the green, like # 4, 7, 11, 12, 16 and 18.

Ed Baker,

# 5 is about 610 or so from the back, while # 16 is 670 from the back, but I find # 5 much harder due to the prevailing wind, much smaller green, and tighter second shot LZ.

# 1 and # 2 are spectacular starting holes, especially into the prevailing wind.

If it doesn't rain, I think I'll visit Charlie tomorrow.
 

[John Kirk]

Patrick,

It's obvious you are very fond of Pine Tree.  I feel like I'm being grilled for making relatively uninformed comments about a course you are intimately familliar with.

I didn't say elevation change was the primary determinant of a course's ability to test a golfer.  I said that a complete examination of one's skills would include some judgement of elevation change.  I think it's less important than judging wind.  And there are limits.  Too hilly is no fun.

And though The Old Course is generally regarded as a comprehensive test of one's skills, it if it's dead flat, it's missing something.  There is some contour out near the end of the loop, isn't there?

I liked most of the few links courses I played the one time I visited Scotland.  And places like Murcar are pretty hilly.

And no, I don't have to be objective.  This is all subjective.  I gave it a Doak 6, meaning I liked it a lot, but wouldn't go out of my way to see it.  How would you rate Pine Tree?

Since you do know the people at Pine Tree, my host was a gentleman named Pat Kenny (maybe Kinney).  Great guy.  Do you know him?

[TEPaul]

I'll tell you about Pine Tree and houses on Pine Tree. My Dad and his basic group loved Dick Wilson and they all got together, bought some land out wherever Pine Tree is---off the Military Trail or whatever---in those days that seemed like the boondocks to them---and they formed the club, got Dick Wilson and created Pine Tree. They built some houses, matter of fact Dad and Jim Raymond (who drew Dagwood comic strip) had both just gotten divorced so they lived in one of those houses (on the drive in as I vaguely recall). What a disaster area those two were together!  

Anyway, for being a founder Dad had a bunch of lots all of which he sold except for one he figured he'd just keep and let it continue to increase in value. Then Pine Tree got reorganized somehow, which really pissed Dad off so he quit the club but he still owned that lot. It was on one of the holes and he was so pissed at the club he purposely wanted it to look like an eyeasore. The club asked him if they could clean it up but Dad told them they had no right to touch his lot so they didn't. I think he even told his friends if they were out at Pine Tree to take whatever garbage they had from wherever they lived and just throw it on his lot to continue to make it look like an eyesore.

I think I had to sell that lot when Dad died. Those guys back in that day did some pretty strange things and Dad was definitely no exception. When he was alive I was aware he had a lot out there because once or twice he told me this story and he'd just laugh!

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

Today, I looked at an aerial of Pine Tree taken circa 1963.

While I had heard that the golf course was previously a dairy farm, the photo seemed to show golf course features directly west of the 11th green, but east of Military Trail, and what looked like abandoned fairways directly east of holes # 18 and # 9.  I wonder if another abandoned golf course existed before Pine Tree was formed.

Is anyone aware of a golf course or golf holes on or near the property in the early 60's ?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Redanman,

The photo is hanging in the clubhouse.

I'll see if I can get a copy made and then post it.

Pine Tree has a good number of ground level photos, taken in the 60's, hanging throughout the clubhouse.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I don't think there was anything much out there before 1963--certainly no golf courses. Delray C.C. was there then but it was farther south off the extension of Atlantic Ave (I believe Dick Wilson was at Delray Beach C.C way back then. Tommy Armour was after they fired him from Boca Raton). In those days once you got west of the Sunshine State Parkway (that was before I95 existed and just to the west of where it is now) there was basically nothing at all except miles and miles of open country that was basically really scruffy cattle operations or whatever it was. The same was true all the way up the Florida east coast. It was the same up in Daytona Beach. Once you got about 30 blocks west of Rte 1 there was nothing. I remember it out there before even the Daytona Beach International Speedway existed (I remember Big Bill France when he owned and operated a gas station on Main St---he was the mechanic). That was the airport and west of that was just wide open country all the way to Sanford and Deland.

I remember my parents talking about buying loads of that open country out there it was so cheap but they passed it up thinking no one would ever want to go out there! Today is a mass of humanity!  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

When you see the photo I think you'll be surprised.

I don't believe that Tommy Armour was fired from the Boca Raton Hotel, I believe that Boca Rio hired him away from the Hotel, as their first pro.

The Boca Raton Hotel policies were responsible for the creation of Boca Rio.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
When you see the photo I think you'll be surprised."

Pat:

Maybe I will be surprised when I see that aerial or photo. But surprised at what? The fact that there was more out there than I remember from 1963 and before? I doubt it!

The reason I feel there was little out there back then is because that's where I used to go with my girlfriend when we were about 16 for some pretty cool serious make-out sessions! And if you're a shy and sensitive guy like me you tend to go where there's very little humanity for serious and cool make-out sessions! If a car came by once every fifteen minutes out there just to the west of Pine Tree back in that day and just before, it would be extremely unusual. Today it'd be a stream of headlights!  

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