Use of computers in design process

[Jari Rasinkangas]

I would like to hear your opinion about using computers in design process.  How much do you use different software and what is done by hand?  Do you use CAD or other drawing and imaging software?

What has been the most helpful software or change in process you have experienced in your career?

Are there any new gadgets that you are trying or thinking about?

[Forrest Richardson]

We don't use computers TO design, but it certainly has become a mostly regular process to create plans in CAD format. I hesitated toward this for several years until I realized that many projects neeeded to be integrated carefully to other plans; civil engineering especially. It's not always the case — many remodeling projects and some sites are not the type that require more than a routing plan and some details.

CAD is especially useful yo ascertain existing conditions and integrate our designs. We run earthwork balances instantly after scanning our grading sketches into digital form and turing them into vector lines, assigned with elevations.

We use PhotoShop a lot to assist in preparing presentation plans. Not always, but it has become a habit. We still draw by hand, but scan these drawings and have Brian — our expert in PhotoShop — put his magic touches on shadows and color.

In Mexico, where we are working in pure sand dunes, we integrated CAD files of the golf course plans to GPS. Our shaper has all of our plans in his buldozer — wherever he is on site he can (if he feels the need) switch on his on-board GPS and know exactly what elevations were intended...the buldozer's blade is calibrated to the plans and he literally can (optional) follow the contours on plans by guiding the dozer with an icon of his location across a plasma screen in his cab. This is not always useful to finishing, but it is a very worthwhile tool for rough grading and getting a hole ready for me to look at. It is especially useful for horizontal guidance — literally, there does not need to be a grade-checker or surveyor on site as the shaper knows exactly where he is on site at all times.

For example; the edge of a wetlands or property line shows up on his GPS screen, so the limits of disturbance does not have to be staked...but we still do, because old habits are difficult to break!

As the famous design professional, Saul Bass, once remarked, "The invention of the typewriter did not necessarily make for better potery."

Computers have not made for better golf architecture, but there are benefits to certain areas of integration, presentation, take-offs, communication and compliance. I suspect many Golden Age architects would have loved the computer age — to a point!

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Jari,

I wrote a little text on this topic a couple of years ago.  You can find it at:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opinionglenn2.html

One thing we've been looking into since then is the use of GPS when staking out a golf course.  I've used one last summer, and it is absolutely nifty.

It's basically like a PDA, where you can upload your AutoCAD file onto the screen.  As you walk around the site, you can see yourself moving around on the screen, so you always know exactly where you would be on the future golf course.  

I should write a little something one this topic in the near future.  Right now, I've got to go to the dentist in 3 minutes...  

[Mike Nuzzo]

For me using cad is about as ineffective as drawing by hand for course design.  I can do both well, but for me there is a much more efficient system.
I use an off the shelf product, kind of inbetween.  I don't scan or digitize, it's all drawn freehand and input directly using a large wacom tablet.  For me it allows for the most freedom whether laying out a preliminary routing or final grading plans.  I can export to Autocad for the contractors or any engineers that require such.

Jeremy,
How accurate can you locate a point?  My understanding is the little ones are accurate to about 10 feet, but the screen is so small it's hard to tell where you are.  A submeter system is quite clumsy with a laptop, to get to within 3 feet.  

Mike

[ian]

Mike,

I work straight on the computer for almost everything. Once I got used to working on the computer, it seemed to be a natural move. I find it eliminates the digitizing that everyone else goes through. I first made the switch for speed, since we are fairly busy most of the time. Now I do it because I find I comfortable most comfortable. I find it much easier for routings, because I can use layers and colours to show all the possible holes and links at the same time. I like designing on the computer, since I can establish clear carry angles or any other element I'm looking to create. I simply don't find the computer screen, or a mouse to be any different than a pencil.

The only huge loss for me is I once could draw and paint fairly well, the computer removed the nedd, and now my skills are eroding fast. I can't draw my kids like I used to.

The sales ability of photoshop, 3-D Studio Max and others is far beyond anything that we had in the past. I posted the before and after for the 12th at Eagles Nest last year. i think that showed the power of visualization with computers.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Ian,
Maybe freehand wasn't a clear term, as I only use a computer, but in a different form than the standard CAD route.
Those awsome 3dmax renderings would require an extensive system.  For me it was the inability to generate a set of contour plans using max that would make it a time prohibitive endeavour, in that I'd still need to generate the plans separately.
Mike

And yes that is a cool name...

PS
Ian-
The table and pen stylus keep my fine motor skills appropriately tuned.  And my daughter, who is 2, loves it also.  She makes a hell of an animal chart.
Cheers

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Hi Shivas,

The Finnish last names are usually quite complicated.  It is always a small problem with foreigners.  You always end up spelling it to get it right.

Jari

[Mike Nuzzo]

Jari,
So why are you interested?
Are you a designer or just curious.
Cheers

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Mike,

A bit both I guess.  I am planning to make a career in golf course design.

I have played golf for more than 25 years.  I have also been more than 15 years in a greenkeeping committee.  My interest in golf architecture began in 1980's when we were doing some renovations on our old course.  After that we started to plan a new 27 hole course on a different site and I was in a group of people who were selected to select the designer and contractor.  The course was planned by Ron Fream's Golfplan and it was opened in 1992.

Because the course got full in the end of 90's we started another project to make new 9 holes.  We selected again Golfplan because we were very pleased with their work earlier.  During this project I was a contact person of the designers.  I also supervised the contouring work and was involved in fitting the plans on the field.

The golf architecture and golf course maintenance have been my hobbies for more than 15 years.  I have read a huge pile of books and also studied course construction.

The reason for all this is that I got bored with my earlier career.  I also love the game and especially the architecture side of it.  

Jari

[Mark_Guiniven]

Finland's two greatest exports: vodka and formula one drivers. Keke, JJ Lehto, Hakkinen, and the young Raikonen. Welcome Jari.

[ian]

Jari,

I'm hoping I'm understanding your question with this answer.

It is just a tool. While people like Mike have the ability to get more out of the tool than most. It does not assist, help or enable an architect in any additional way. The pencil, mapping, trace and a scale are simply traded for a mouse a digital file and the tools of the software.

The design process remains unchanged by technology.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ian,

Mostly true, but don't you find that a quick 3D view of your grading plan can highlight some obvious "whoops" before the field.  In my case, its usually too pimply mounds or slightly blind bunkers, both of which are easily corrected.  For that matter, including those final 3D views should take away the last excuse of a shaper for the same problems in the field, no?

When I built the Quarry, Park Construction had the GPS staking.  They could take my CAD grading plans, and the existing topo and input it in their computers.  They also obtained "real" topo by bouncing the GPS off 11 different satellites.  

While we went to lunch, or did other things, "Bob, the GPS guy" would stake a hole and  we would come back to review the cut and fill marks.  We saved a lot of time and came up with a better product, either through correcting wrong topo, or eliminating some of the ahem... excess....we might have had in our grading plans.

You might call that technology impacting construction, but I did use it as a design tool.

[Brandon OMahoney]

Hello all.  I’m new to this discussion group, so I’ll start with a short introduction.  I graduated LAR from the University of Georgia, and luckily, while in school, I was able to intern for a Golf Architect.  Ya’ll might know him as Mike Young.  Once I finished school, I went down to West Palm Beach and worked for Jack Nicklaus Design for a short while.  While at Nicklaus, I assisted in their plan department helping everyone from Jack to Barbara, to Jacky and Gary.  After leaving Florida I moved back to Athens, GA. to rejoin Mike.  He is the one who introduced me to this site (for future reference, anyone who has any problems with my posts can blame him).  
   Anyway, my reason for posting is to tell Jari that I worked with a pioneer in introducing computers to Golf Architecture (Bobby Root).    
   Short story:  Mike hired Bobby to put together a package that runs over top of Microsation (CAD).  This package does routing’s, generates cut & fill, scorecards, title blocks, etc in a matter of minutes.  Bobby now works with Jack and heads up his entire IT department at Golden Bear.
   Hopefully, I’ve now established some credibility in this arena.  So, in answering Jari’s question and giving him my opinion:

1.   “How much do you use different software and what is done by hand?  Do you use CAD or other drawing and imaging software?”
a.   We use Microstation (CAD), IrasB, PowerPoint and all of Adobe’s products.  All of our renderings and ½ of our fieldwork is done by hand.
2.   “What has been the most helpful software or change in process you have experienced in your career?”
a.   T2Green definitely!  I wish there were a way to show everyone the software.  The greatest thing about it is that it’s in a CAD setting and is geared solely for Golf Course Architects.  I’ve tried other course design software and it just doesn’t match up.
3.   “Are there any new gadgets that you are trying or thinking about?”
a.   It might not sound flashy, but the latest and greatest tool we have converts our plots or anything in Microstation into PDF files.  This is extremely helpful when we’re dealing with clients who are computer illiterate, and who need to be very involved in the day to day.  It also keeps them from making changes without our permission.
b.   Also, Forrest talked about something I recently heard about and would love to see in action.  
i.   “the bulldozer’s blade is calibrated to the plans and he literally can (optional) follow the contours on plans by guiding the dozer with an icon of his location across a plasma screen in his cab. This is not always useful to finishing, but it is a very worthwhile tool for rough grading and getting a hole ready for me to look at. It is especially useful for horizontal guidance — literally, there does not need to be a grade-checker or surveyor on site as the shaper knows exactly where he is on site at all times.”  


   Lastly I’d like to agree with a couple other opinions that were posted earlier.  These points basically sum up my feelings as well, when it comes to computers in architecture.

1.   “Computers have not made for better golf architecture, but there are benefits to certain areas of integration, presentation, take-offs, communication and compliance. I suspect many Golden Age architects would have loved the computer age — to a point!” – Forrest R.
2.   “I find it much easier for routings, because I can use layers and colors to show all the possible holes and links at the same time. I like designing on the computer, since I can establish clear carry angles or any other element I'm looking to create. I simply don't find the computer screen, or a mouse to be any different than a pencil.” – Ian Andrew

[Mike_Young]

our system is a Microstation based system with a golf specific layer.  We keep it on laptops and use it for everything from clearing plans thru bid documents.  And as Jeff says it can be of great bbenefit when turned into 3D format for cuts etc.

[Jari Rasinkangas]

I would like to thank you for all interesting information!

Do you think there is a risk to start copying design when using computer too much?  I saw last year some design plans where nearly all bunkers looked like the same.  Like doing copy paste for bunkers or using some template for bunkers.  It looked horribly artificial.  The design company was canadian.

Keep posting more.

Jari

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Jeremy,

As Mike asked I would also like to know how accurate can you locate a point?

What is the "PDA" you are using?

Jari

[Mike Nuzzo]

Do you think there is a risk to start copying design when using computer too much?  I saw last year some design plans where nearly all bunkers looked like the same.  Like doing copy paste for bunkers or using some template for bunkers.  It looked horribly artificial.  The design company was canadian.

No more of a risk than any other method.  It depends on who is responsible and if they care.

Brandon -
Here is a way you can show us T2Green....
http://www.techsmith.com/products/snagit/default.asp
It's great for screen shots, it's easy, and they have a free trial.
If not would you explain a little more about what it is?
What does generate routings mean?  

Ian -
Let me know if you want to know how to get draw a good shark or airplane!
Thanks for the compliment...

Cheers

[Brandon OMahoney]

Let me try and explain by what I meant by generating routings.  Lets say that you’re in CAD and you have your base information ready, and to scale.  Lets also say that you’ve chosen your clubhouse site and anything else you might need before routing the golf course.  Now we’ll start routing.  We’ll start with a par 4.  Basically, you’d place your first mouse click, the computer will start a tee marker, and a corridor (whatever size corridor radius you’d like, 50, 75, 100 etc.), which will visually stretch out like a rubber band up until you click your first turn point (275, 300 yards, whatever).  Since we’re placing a par 4 than we’ll place the turn point and continue on to the green.  The corridor is stretching with the mouse and is waiting for the green destination.  You then click the green destination and the corridor is placed around it.  The corridor is at a 75’ radius around the tee and a 175’ radius around the 1st turn point and the green.  After this you can place your blue, white, red and gold tees, if you know where they’re going.  After this step, your scorecard is automatically filled out either in yards or meters.  Once you’ve finished all 18 you can press another tool and the scorecard with name of course, designer and all 18 holes filled out, from back to front tees, is ready to be placed on the drawing.  It will also keep track of up to 6 golf courses in one file.  This might not make too much sense, but I’m trying to do 3 things at once.  Hopefully it does.

[jg7236]

I feel Auto-CAD 2005 and Photshop CS is a must in the land development world (including golf course design world) and is the universal program for all engineers, developers, architects, and planners.

[Mark_Guiniven]

I was pretty chuffed to find this free program, Dimin Viewer n5 for large aerials, this week. Love the overlay feature, full screen navigating, smooth mouse dragging and friction scrolling features. If there's a better commercial image viewer than this one I would like to know what it's called and the light version is only 700kb to download. Click the thumbnail for larger screenshot.

[Tom_Doak]

Brandon:  No offense, but is your computer's routing software better than you are at routing a golf course?  

Is it better than Bill Coore is?

I am sure that some young people who are technically proficient can find ways in which the computer helps them to see things more quickly than they could see them without the computer.  However, in the end, golf course design is partly an art form and computers will never substitute for a really good artist.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Mike & Jari,

I don't specifically remember the brand name of the "PDA" that I had used, though it certainly wasn't a Palm Pilot or anything of the sort.  Rather, it was a rather large, rubbery-yellow device that I could carry in one hand.  Size wise, it was basically to a Palm Pilot what a 1980s cell phone is to todays cell phones.  But it had a Windows processor, and basically worked like a PDA, with a GPS receiver intergrated within it.

As far as accuracy was concerned, the thing was less than a foot horizontally (which is what I needed) although it was quite a bit more approximate on the vertical scale.

Put it this way, I would look at my screen, and see the "X" at a certain spot.  Then, I could extend my arm, and the "X" would move.

That's accurate enough for me!  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tom,

Brandon uses his "routing" software the same way you would use a pencil on a topo.  He's looking for turning points, tees and greens and having the pc tabulate cumulative distances.  It's not actually routing.  As Ian says, for some a pc is more effective than a pencil,  and the tasks remain the same.   It's also true for renderings, for some it's easier on a pc, but not for someone like Strantz.

I will differ with your choice of the word never.  I've heard that too often in my past...where I eventually made it possible.  There are 2 inherent problems with computers and golf design:

1.  Getting the existing land into the computer.
2.  Transfering your designed land into the dirt.

The art comes from the person not the computer.
I'm working on building without plans, it will be nice to have done both.

Cheers

[Mike_Young]

Tom,
Just to understand what Brandon is saying....
We initially route as most by using a set of 200 scale templates which we then trace onto paper which is scanned into the computer....at that point Brandon lets thhe computer do the drafting.  It will generate a complete set of drawings in no time.  As well as doucments.

 I agree with you ...at no time does or will the computer replace the routing abilities of an individual.  We use it as a drafting tool to make up for my  drafting abilities and to expedite any changes that may needed .  But in truth, once in the field we usually only use the centerline points and concede to onsite design.  

[Brandon OMahoney]

Tom,
   No offense taken whatsoever.  I completely agree with you.  There is no match when it comes to a young computer proficient person, like me, and a great artist.  I would also agree that I'm nowhere near as decorated, when it comes to routing, as anyone else in the business.  Then, I'd have to say your also right when you say that golf architecture is truly and art form, which should be left up to the great artists among us.  I then wondered what one would consider a great artist?
  Is it someone who can sketch a few geometric shapes on a note pad and who then hands it to a person in a bulldozer, or is it the guy who moves the dirt around to look like the note pad?  Is it someone who wins more golf tournaments than anyone, ever, on the planet, or that person’s coach?  Is it someone who rights a book on the subject, or the person who edits that book?  Is it someone who paints the Sistine Chapel for fear of death, or is it someone who can capture anything that crosses their path and make it their own?  Maybe it’s all of the above, but I would consider many different things when it comes to proclaiming an artist.  It could be anyone from the guy’s who wrote Caddyshack, Office Space, and Napoleon Dynamite to someone who can’t draw and now can, thanks to a computer.  I believe that anyone can be an artist, as long as there are enough people out there that can make money off of them.  
  I've dabbled a bit with art in the past and I would love to hear everyone's opinions.  The first sketch is my wife Olivia, the second one is an old example of one of our hand renderings, the third one I did for our wedding (It's her and I back in ‘76), and the last one is a friend of mine I met down in Florida.






  Lastly I'd like to agree with Mike Nuzzo on the word never.  When I hear people use that word, I try to remind them of the experiences in my life.  I haven't been around the block as many times as some others, but I do remember the Coliseum, The Roman Aqueduct in Segovia (not one ounce of mortar holding that massive structure together), St. Peter's (a friend of mine gave Olivia and I a tour, while we were there (picture at bottom), 2 Los Angeles earthquakes over 6.0 and 2 hole’s in one.  One more thing that comes to mind before I go...can anyone imagine what people would be saying about computers today, if Leonardo Da Vinci or Rembrandt owned one.

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