List of Top 100 Courses in Continental Europe

[Keith Durrant]

I hadnt see this list available online before:

http://www.golfissimo.com/html/web/Top_Courses/eurotop.htm

Any notable omissions or misplacements?

Has anyone played Bill Coore's Golf Du Medoc or Pete Dye's Domaine Imperial? How do they rate against the rest of their portfolios? I'm guessing these are their sole ventures in Europe?

Keith

[Mark_Rowlinson]

This reminds me that I've been meaning to ask for more information on Peter Gannon, Cecil Blandford and H.Burrows for ages.  Anyone know anything about them?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I see where this list comes from.  I think it's very difficult to compile a European list because golf in Europe is very different from golf in the UK and golf in the USA.  Nobody goes to Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Germany, Sweden for golf.  Northern Europeans go south to the Algarve or even Turkey in winter to escape the dark, wet or snowy conditions (Florida and the Carolinas, too).  In summer they stay at home and play their own course in frequent competition.  You only know about Rungsted (CA Mackenzie, not Alister as in this listing), Silkeborg, Holstebro or Esbjerg if you have work in Denmark and happen to take your clubs with you, or you have family or friends there.  I remember picking up a Finnair in-flight magazine about golf holidays in Finland.  Has anyone played golf in Finland (there are plenty of courses)?  What are the courses like? I had no opportunity to find out on my one visit.

[Steve Okula]

Of the courses I know in Europe, the one glaring inequity I see is St Germain at #44. I would rate it in the same league as #4/5/6 Morfontaine/Chantilly/El Saler.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Rating the courses in Europe is a tough job, but there is a book out there which has yet to let me down. It is also pretty witty in it's unabashed favouritism towards natural links courses as opposed to modern manicured RTJ etc (note, that was modern, not post, or post post modern - which many of you guys, me included, are excited about)

Here's the only link I could find

Amazon.co.uk
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/2970008254/qid=1105234355/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/202-1470017-4676649

[Ville Nurmi]

I do play golf in Finland fairly regularly from may to october/november.
We have 120 courses, 100.000 players. Most of the courses are around Helsinki(the capital). Oldest course is from 1920´s and is called Helsinki Golf Club.
A finnish architect Kosti Kuronen has designed about 35 out of the courses. SOme of his best work is Vuosaari ( http://golfpiste.com/kentat/esittely/?seura=20585&lang=fi ) and Wiurila (www.wgcc.fi/) Then we also have a couple of swedish architects who have come over.
Thomas McBroom has done two big money courses which opened last year. They look really beautiful, but I think they are as American as you can get. Kyle Philips worked for RTJ JR for his course in Ruuhikoski( http://www.ruuhikoskigolf.fi/ ).
The most exotic thing i finnish golf is hitting a par3 where the ball travels an hour!! Quess how it is done?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Has anyone seen Villa d'Este or Pevero? I know of one friend who gave so-so reports on Pevero, but another told me it was among RTJs best...

Les Bordes seems a little elevated, but it is very strong. Prince de Provence benefits from its exclusivity and perfect maintenance.

Is anyone familiar with Moscow CC?

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Thomas McBroom has done two big money courses which opened last year. They look really beautiful, but I think they are as American as you can get.

Ville,
American? Tom is a fellow Canuck, so you can imagine our chagrin...  

Have you played either course? I am interested to hear about them.

[Jason McNamara]

The most exotic thing i finnish golf is hitting a par3 where the ball travels an hour!! Quess how it is done?

Tornio, right?  Do you need a passport?  

Jason

ps.  What is Nordcenter like?

[Philip Gawith]

i think the placing of Real Club de Golf Sotogrande at number seven is a joke. imho a totally unremarkable course. i am glad that they have praia del rey and oitavos (both in portugal, near lisbon) on the list - both are wonderful courses.

[Ville Nurmi]

Ben,
I haven´t played either of courses, but I have walked both during construction and lots of pictures as they are seemed to be the best courses in Finland. Everything I have seen is American, (Canadian if you like) Big bunkers, raised tees, everything visible, lots of bunkers. It is totally different experience than what we are used to in Finland. And also white bunker sand. I don´t find it so attractive to the eye. The cost for building these courses is said to be about 6-8 M euros per course. All the other courses in Finland have been build with less than 4 Million. I quess that makes a big difference also.
Both courses are tough, long and really beutiful. Thay are situated by a big lake andd travel through some forest and farmland. You can find pictures: http://www.golfpiste.com/kytajagolf/kuvagalleria/?lang=en and routing http://www.golfpiste.com/kytajagolf/images/kenttakartta_iso.jpg

Jason, you don´t need a passport as a Finnish or Swedish citizen, but I´m not sure about the others   but the officers at the border do not have guns.

Nordcenter has two courses both by american architects, Ronald Fream and Bradford Benz. Fream has also done few other courses here. The Fream course used the be the most diffucult course in Finland. Narrow fairways and woods on the sides. Nothing cleared under the trees. Hit one there and you woiuld lose it. It has matured nicely, and is considered to be one of the best in Finland.
The Benz course has been much kinder all the time. I think it is better one of the two. Demanding par4´s and enough of width so you have to think your way around the course.

The best feature of Finnish golf is midnight sun golf. For example 3 rounds of golf without breaks during midsummer is really nice!

Cheers,
Ville

[Gerry B]

villa d'este is a really nice course in a beautiful setting - and the lunch ranks in the top 10  

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Mark, as Ville states we have over 100 courses in Finland. You should come and play midnight sun golf in Finland.  In southern Finland that is not so easy because the nights are quite dark there even during mid summer.  But instead you should come to northern Finland.  I am from Oulu where we have 36 holes by Ron Fream's Golfplan.  He has designed also another 18 holes in Paltamo (150 km east of Oulu).  In Oulu and Paltamo you can play all night through from mid June to mid July.

The new 9 holes in Oulu were opened last summer.  I was supervising the work there and was the contact person for Ron Fream and David Dale from Golfplan.  We managed to make nice work there with very low budget.

The northernmost course is in Rovaniemi at the arctic circle.  The have only 9 holes there but very sunny midnights.

Ben, Nordcenter was the first "real" golf course in Finland.  It was designed in late 80's by Ron Fream.  The budget was very low and the site is very rocky and difficult.  The course has been voted by Finnish professionals as number one in Finland for more than a decade.  It was not until last year that Kytäjä course took that title.

Jari

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Jari and Ville,
Thank you very much for the information, I appreciate that.

Gerry,
I sent you private message.

[Keith Durrant]

Villa d'Este opening drive:



2nd shot to the 1st:


Pretty inviting !

[Tony Ristola]

Mark,

I'd spent a number of seasons in Scandinavia, and of the courses there, I like Helsinki GC.  The oldest course in Finland, it has evolved during the years.  Cramped in a couple sections (9G, 10T, 13T & 16T are all clustered together), a couple quirky holes (10...the shortest par-5 in the world...300 meters or so) but it has some charm.  I'd like to see a dozer taken to some of humps added along 17, but all in all enjoyable.

Kontiolahti has some beautitful land...the course is nice, one of Kosti Kuronen's better projects, but it's a long drive to get there.

On the whole, the average Finnish course is better than the average Swedish course, though Finland doesn't have anything which stands out. This is largely due to Kosti Kuronens efforts.  His courses have good routings, the odd wild green, and decent strategies.  What they lack is love during construction.

Ville, Jari,
I disagree with my fellow pro's about Nordcenter and could name 20 Finnish courses better...easily.  I found it to be a maximum security prison.  After playing there a couple times in the late 80's early 90's I swore I'd never go back.  It wasn't wide enough and as you point out, miss the fairway and you were in the blue berries, lingon berries rocks and trees.  I can't see it being a whole lot better today.  The Benz course is certainly more playable, beautiful and more fun but slightly over mounded considering it was cut through the trees.

Ville, only 3 rounds a day?  

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Tony,

Yes, Kontiolahti has very beautiful land and I also think it is one of the best Kosti Kuronen courses but even it has too many blind shots.  I don't know why but nearly all Kosti's courses have several blind shots.  Some of them have even been done by building an artificial mound in the middle of fairway.  Of course it is ok to have some occasional blind shot but why on nearly every course?

Yes, I agree that the average Finnish course is better than Swedish.  Even though the budgets are not usually very high in Finnish projects they are even much lower in Sweden.  The average budget in Finland is about 3 m€ for 18 holes including club house, maintenance facilities and equipment.  In Sweden they have built courses for under 1 m€.  With such low budgets there is no fairway contouring, no drainage etc.

The biggest reason to have poor courses in Scandinavia is the lack of enthusiasm in details by the local designers.  Many of them are building architects who play golf.  They produce useable master plans but the detailed design for greens, bunkers etc. is very poor.  Also because there are no professional shapers in Finland the results can be very clumsy.  Yes, I agree the love has been really missing during construction but unfortunately it has been missing also during design.

The Nordcenter has been widened and it plays easier than it used to.  The reason for the early years difficulty was the small budget.  They did not have the money to make it as wide as it was planned.

After those years (late 80's) the Finnish contractors and also the project owners have learned the lesson.  Nowadays the courses are being built with better knowledge and the roughs are also grassed wider in the woods.

Jari

[T_MacWood]

Is there any good links land in Scandinavia...Falsterbo looks good, but there must be more, with miles and miles of coastland?

[Jari Rasinkangas]

Tom,

In Finland we have only one course that has true links land.  It is Yyteri Golf near Pori on the west coast.  Unfortunately only a couple of holes are on links land and the rest of them are inland holes with trees.

I know only Falsterbo from Sweden to be a true links course.

In Finland we do not have many sandy sea costal areas.  The Finnish costline is mainly quite rocky.  I think it is the same in Sweden and especially in Norway also.  Denmark has lots of sandy coasts but I do not know anything about the Danish courses.

Jari

[T_MacWood]

There was a German golf course on island in the North Sea named Norderney. I don’t know who designed it, if anyone, but it was over pretty dramatic dunes from old pictures I’ve seen. Does the course still exist?

[Keith Durrant]

Tom, it does exist, 9 holes only:

http://www.golf-hotel-norderney.de/

Couldnt see any references to a named designer.

Here's a pic (it has dunes !):

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There's a 9-holer at Helsingborg (Sweden) which is links.  Is Fano Island (Denmark) links?  I remember driving from the ferry at Sjaellands Odde in Denmark and thinking that there must be a links course there somewhere on that sandy shoreline but I never found one and I'm not entrepreneurial enough to start one off myself.  

What I did want to do, though, was get at some of that natural heathland in Poland (lots of it round Warsaw).  I was there in communist days and all the farming was done with horse and cart and shovel.  Ideal to build a Polish Sunningdale or Woking, but, again, I wouldn't know where to start setting about that.  (I've been back in more recent times and they all drive Mercedes tractors now).

[T_MacWood]

Thanks for the link....Norderney looks pretty enticing.

[Ville Nurmi]

I bring this back, because I visited Denmark for the last four days and we played the Fanoe course which Mark asks about.
It is a links course, with 18-holes. Unfortunately it doesn´t have any tees, only mats.

The land itself is really good, some big dunes and also smaller ones. The course is located in a southern end of a huge area of dunes. The views from around the course were really good.
The course is short and really quirky. That is if I have understood the word correctly. Holes 8-14 all had blind approuch shots. 8, 14 and 15 also have blind drives. It is kind of tireing to guess the green location all the time. It seems that for some reasons blindness seemed to be an ultimate goal. Most of the blind holes had clearly visible really good greensites also.

There are good holes also.1st is a 500 meter straight away par 5. 17 is really beautiful par4 in a valley of dunes.

The course is a second for me without any bunkers. In a links land it seems wierd that there are none.

The course isn´t anything special, but if you are in the Eastern coast of Denmark, I suggest that one should visit it! If not to play but to look at the dunes and think of what still could be done!!

Ville

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Ville,  Thank you for bringing this thread back.  As it happens my wife and I will be in Denmark in early August and it may be worth a detour.  We'll have the clubs with us in the car.

Mark.