How good is Oak Tree?

[Jeff_Mingay]

In my 1988 edition of The World Atlas of Golf, Pete Dye is quoted saying, Oak Tree is "the finest inland golf course I have ever built".

My buddy, Rod Whitman, assisted with the remodel of Oak tree in preparation for the 1988 PGA Championship, and he's told me it's a good course.

But, who's played it? I'm interested in some opinions, based on Mr. Dye's comment in The World Atlas...

[Craig Van Egmond]

   
Jeff,

      I finally played it last year and it is a very good course, the second best course in Oklahoma behind Southern Hills and ahead of Karsten Creek.  Everything you'd expect from Pete Dye, angles, harsh lines, etc. They have softened it over the last couple of years, redoing all of the greens (Pete Dye approved), although the greens are still very severe, just larger. The course is a brute, but it rewards good shots. I have some pictures somewhere, I will try to post them.

     A couple on notes: They made them take down the hangman's noose this past year also, but it was still there when I played and the famous Oak Tree is on life support, with IV like things sticking into it, keeping it alive.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Thanks Craig.

Who made them take down the hangman's noose, and why? Just curious.

There's talk about the loss of original architecture on this site all the time. How about Pete Dye's original works?!

Oak Tree
Crooked Stick
TPC Sawgrass
Harbour Town
Ocean Course at Kiawah

Even though the renovation of all these courses has been approved, and supervised by Dye, the original architecture is gone. And, I've heard from people who's opinions I trust that Crooked Stick, for one, was more interesting originally. Others argue the same in regard to Sawgrass.  

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I believe the club carried forward with the idea to remove the hangman's noose at the par-5 16th. The symbolism of such an item in Oklahoma was something the club did not wish to convey to those who might play the course and be "sensitive" to what it conveys.

The golf course is really a outgrowth of Pete Dye's crankiness. When the wind blows -- which in Oklahoma is foten and at times fierce -- the layout can be quite demanding.

Unfortunately, when I covered the '88 PGA Championship you could have placed a single sheet of paper outdoors and come back later that day and it would have been in the sam eexact location. The wind literally dropped.

The PGA of America also overreacted to all the hype of Oak Tree and played a number of holes from forward tee areas and they also made it a point for the course to play much softer than what the members handle.

The result ?

A massive assault on par -- I believe the 2nd easiest in recent times. The lone exception was the self-destruction of Seve Ballesteros after such a triumph at the BO in the BO prior to that year's PGA. I also remember that the folks flipped the actual 9th and 18th holes to play in reverse order for the course in order to bring the players closer to the clubhouse for the finale.

The wind picked up somewhat for the final round and clearly having Jeff Sluman win his first major and tour triumph all in the same blow was something of a letdown given the "big names" on hand. If memory serves Sluman fired a final round 65 and overtook Paul Azinger who led the 4th round by a few shots if I recall correctly.

The course is much better than what the PGA demonstrated. The opening hole may be one of the most demanding for major sites. It's a long par-4 of roughly 440+ yards and the tee shot has to be played perfectly to permit an approach. Pete threw everything into the mixture and frankly the really critical holes are the short ones -- especially the par-3's. The par-3 4th plays about 210 yards and the slightest hiccup can mean a quick DB or TB or even more.

The thing about Oak Tree is that it provides what Pete has always done best IMHO -- create the visual terror for the better player. There's plenty of room for the mid-to-high handicap player -- provided the correct tees are played -- to use alternate routes to get to many of the holes. However, the better player will face a array of "mind games" that Pete has successfully down beforehand.

Oak Tree is more penal than plenty of his earliest works like The Golf Club and Harbour Town. It was created for the purpose in testing the top players and really is a forerunner to what he eventually designed at The Ocean Course at Kiawah.

Unfortunately, since the '88 event Oak Tree has disappeared from the view of the public. Clearly, Southern Hills is ahead of it but I can see Oak Tree still holding onto the 2nd slot even though I am a big fan of Karsten Creek -- one of TF's very best designs.

As a final note -- I've played Oak Tree twice sine '88 and both times the wind howled. It can be a major bitch if you're not hitting your tee shot precisely and in knowing how well you can manage your game.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Here is a blurb from golfdigest about the noose:

http://www.golfdigest.com/newsandtour/index.ssf?/newsandtour/gw20040827bunker.html


Oak Tree fell on some hard times in the 90's, ended up losing the PGA to Southern Hills, but was purchased by one of the Mathis brothers (large furniture stores here in Oklahoma) who is intent on restoring it and landing championships again.  It appears to be working as the  2006 Senior PGA championship will be hosted at Oak Tree.

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Has the club resolved the membership issue -- that seemed to be a stumbling block for future major events?

If memory serves the club was originally a men's only club.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Matt,

       When the new ownership group took over in 1994 they changed the membership requirements to allow members of any color or gender.  

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

I only remember courses of quality.

[Andy Troeger]

I played Oak Tree National (as its now called) a couple weeks ago. They've done additional work to the course in the time since this thread and I would guess (this was my first visit) that its closer to the original design intent than it had been in 2005. My host mentioned that the course was built to be among the hardest in the country and I think they have returned it to that status. One thing I enjoyed, however, was that it was still pretty playable from the up tees for the average golfer. The forced carries became much more manageable and there generally is room to bail out and have some kind of recovery option. The front nine IMO is the best in Oklahoma out of those courses on the various national lists. The back nine goes through the housing development a bit more but still has high quality holes. I think the course deserves consideration to return to some of the 100 Greatest lists and to be considered more highly among Dye's best works. It wouldn't make his top five IMO (Pete Dye GC, The Golf Club, TPC Sawgrass, then I currently have Blackwolf River and The Honors without having played Kiawah), but that's more a function of Dye's greatness than anything else. Its worth a look.

[Matt Kardash]

I just took a look at their website and saw a few pics. Just from the pics I think it is safe to say that this course has some of the fiercest looking bunkers ever on a Dye course. The pics look very cool.

[Sam Morrow]

When I was playing JUCO in the area I had the good fortune of playing Oak Tree several times. This has been 10 years but I remember that it was a course where you had to know where to miss. Miss in the wrong spot and bogey was a good score. The bunkers are very cool, I would love to get up and see the renovations.

[Matt_Cohn]

...and ahead of Karsten Creek.

I'm not sure if I agree or disagree, but why? Is Karsten not more beautiful, less maddening, but at least equally challenging?

[mike_beene]

the front nine is the over the top forced carries uneven lies type course they advertise.Then you go immediately to houses on both sides this could be anywhere in suburban America.Yes there are a few good holes on the back,but it feels like a different world.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
"Less maddening" (regarding Karsten) might actually be why I'd enjoy playing Oak Tree a bit more although its fairly close. Oak Tree might drive me nuts over time, but I think it would keep me more engaged. The difficulty is presented in very different ways--it probably just comes down to whether you prefer Fazio or Dye.

Mike,
I agree with your point about the housing regarding #10/11. After that, even the housing remains for awhile longer, I think the course gets back into character pretty quickly. I'm not sure how much of a negation (in an evaluatory perspective) is necessary for the diversion, but at least the course redeems itself at the end. Given the difficulty of the 1st hole and 9th hole and that the front is just the superior nine, I'm a bit surprised they haven't reversed the nines at some point. It does have Dye's 5-3-4 finishing stretch, so perhaps that's the point.

[Pete Blaisdell]

Jeff
 I've had the pleasure of officiating in Oklahoma on a few occasions ( APL Jimmie Austin and NCAA Karsten) and have also played Southern Hills and Oak Tree National. Oak Tree is one of the 5 most difficult courses (back tees) I have seen but, as mentioned, from the correct tees, it is a very enjoyable test.Tripp Davis did the remodel work and was kind enough to host myself and a couple of other USGA officials and tripp and the Oak Tree staff treated us to a great day. The par threes require precise play, the correct side of the fairways must be hit to get your best angles to your target and the greens were complex but fair. One does not slop it around at Oak Tree and score well from any set of tees. You are challenged on every shot.I can remember every hole at Oak Tree and that is a compliment to the course.
 I felt Karsten was a good course but not in the same ballpark as Oak Tree. I think the greens were a bit unfair and did not reward good play. Too many trees, too much emphasis on length but still an enjoyable day if your game is on.
 I'm a Dye fan (except for Purdue Kampen) and The Golf Club and Harbour Town are out and out genius and as good as anything built in the last 50 years.
 Have not played Tulsa CCwhich I'm told is very good but to rate the three I have, I would give Oak Tree the nod, Southern Hills a second with Karsten bringing up the rear. The bar-b-q , cold beer and the good folks in Oklahoma will always bring a smile to my face. Sooners and Cowboys!!!!

[Craig Van Egmond]

Matt,

      I do think that Karsten Creek is a more beautiful/scenic course than Oak Tree and I like the way that almost every hole is isolated from the rest. However, Karsten relies on length and trees/OB much more  for its brutality than Oak Tree.  The greens at Karsten are more about blinding speed than curves.  Still love both courses and would play either one in heart beat.  Karsten is by far the best public course in the state, nothing else is even close.

[Brad Tufts]

I had a chance to play Oak Tree National last Monday, and was pretty impressed.

I find that the Pete Dye courses that tend to be letdowns are those where the budget was low or the course has not been kept to the exacting standards some of the hard-edge features require.

Clearly, OTN was built with a large budget, and has been kept up very nicely.  I found the green complexes to be engaging, and I saw challenging features to the better player playing further back, and room for the lesser player playing middle and forward.

I would probably put OTN up there with the best Pete courses I have seen so far, although I have not yet played WS, K-Ocean, Harbour Town, or CDCampo.  I think it beats French Lick pretty handily, for example.

[Matthew Petersen]

Matt,
"Less maddening" (regarding Karsten) might actually be why I'd enjoy playing Oak Tree a bit more although its fairly close. Oak Tree might drive me nuts over time, but I think it would keep me more engaged. The difficulty is presented in very different ways--it probably just comes down to whether you prefer Fazio or Dye.

Mike,
I agree with your point about the housing regarding #10/11. After that, even the housing remains for awhile longer, I think the course gets back into character pretty quickly. I'm not sure how much of a negation (in an evaluatory perspective) is necessary for the diversion, but at least the course redeems itself at the end. Given the difficulty of the 1st hole and 9th hole and that the front is just the superior nine, I'm a bit surprised they haven't reversed the nines at some point. It does have Dye's 5-3-4 finishing stretch, so perhaps that's the point.

Andy,

Not sure how it's been handled for subsequent big events, but when they played the PGA there in '88 they did switch 9 and 18.

[mike_beene]

Switched 9 and 18 for sr PGA also.Crowd flow I think.Too bad because 18 has a neat Valley of Sin.

[Bill_McBride]

Switched 9 and 18 for sr PGA also.Crowd flow I think.Too bad because 18 has a neat Valley of Sin.

So the 8th and 17th greens are close together, or are there big hikes involved in the crossover?

[Brad Tufts]

I think the switch of 9 and 18 for tourneys is a good idea.  #18 is more of a straightforward brutish hole with a shallow elevated green.  #9 is a bit shorter and semi-blind from the fairway.

To answer Bill's question, everything is pretty close.  Both #8 and #17 are par threes over water, and #1 green, #2 tee, #8 green, #9 tee, #18 tee, and #17 green are all within 125 yards of each other.

[Shane Wright]

I would agree that #9 is a much better finishing hole.  I thought #18 was one of the very few weak moments of the course.  When I think of long and difficult golf courses, there are very few that come to mind that give a higher handicapper a chance to get around ok, not lose too many balls, and not be severely beaten up for 4+ hours.  Oak Tree is an exception.  We had 2 scratch golfers in our group along with two 15+ handicappers and all were able to get equal enjoyment out of the course.  The greens have some good variety and great spots for pin locations during a championship.   

[Brad Tufts]

My question while playing was how on earth did they manage to get 3 of the 99 greatest holes in the USA?

If you believe the Golf Digest plaques on those three tees....not sure of the year. (holes 3,4, and 16)

They aren't bad holes (the 3rd and 16th are clear standouts at least), but 3 on one course, and it's Oak Tree?

Tough to think of any year or criteria that would cause that...

[Randy Thompson]

Because Dye was the raters golden boy during that particular era and Landmark was Landmark and it is an overall great golf course for that era. I went to that PGA in ¨88¨, I remeber two things, first it was incredibly hot and humid, after walking a few holes, we watched the tournament inside in one of the bars knocking down a couple of brews. Secondly, when we passed through the entrance gate, I found a $20 bill on the ground, I still got it, if anybody on this site lost it!

[Mark Saltzman]

Surprised there are no comments on the trees.  Any thoughts on the use of trees on holes 4, 5, 11, 12, 13, and 15?

I agree with a lot of the comments here.  Somehow Dye managed to make this course brutally difficult and yet playable for a mid-handicap.

The back-9 stretch of holes through the homes are a big let-down.

Par-3s, as a set, are as hard as I've ever played.