Public v. Private Golf

[Jason Topp]

I'm probably at the point where I could afford to join a private club, but cannot logically justify doing so from any perspective.  In large part, this view is based on the large number of better quality public courses built in the last 15 years.

Am I missing something? If not, are private clubs in trouble over the next 20 years?  If not, why not?

My thoughts, in rough order of importance are below.  Some of these observations may offend some people.  I do not mean them in a mean spirited way and am interested in hearing contrary views.  

1.  Cost - As an illustration:  Assume 50 rounds per year, $5000 per year as an annual assigned cost of initiation fee (or an assessment) and $500 per month, I come up with a per round cost of $220.  I can choose the public courses in my area without regard to price and average $50 per round.  I can play my public course rounds, and take two major trips to almost anywhere in the world.

2.  Variety of courses - In my area, there are 20 public courses I enjoy playing.  Many have been built in the last 10 years.  I think it is more enjoyable to play different courses rather than the same one over and over.

3.  Quality of Courses - While none of the public courses match the top 5 private in the area, I think they overlap in quality from that point on.  Overall, I would rather have 20 good options than one great one.

4.  Complaining - When I visit private clubs, I am amazed by how much complaining seems to take place, whether about plans to assess the membership for a clubhouse or course renovations, disputes about leadership of the club, complaints about course quality, complaints about purported sandbaggers or slow players and anything else one can imagine.  (I once heard of a complaint about grass growth in the trees).

5.   Treatment of Employees - I am more comfortable with the way customers of a public facility treat employees.  While there are certanly rude public course customers, my skin crawls at what I perceive to be a norm of treating employees of private clubs as servants.  

6.  Egalitarian ethics - I kind of like the fact that at my primary public course, the people I play with range from doctors or lawyers to the unemployed.  Many of the best players and the most respected golfers are the least successful on a careeer basis.  
 
There are some factors that favor private clubs, but I think their importance has diminished over the last 15 years:

1.  Tee time access (not as big a difference with recent slowing of economy and additional public courses)

2.  Pace of play (still a pretty big difference)

3.  Course conditioning (I think this difference has grown pretty minor with the exception of extremely fast greens).

4.  Practice access (I actually think public practice areas have improved to the point that there really is no difference between public and private practice facilities)

5.  Course design Quality (per my comments above, this factor has diminished greatly).


I tried to keep off of this list items that purely apply to me.  In particular my friends on public courses, which probably trump most of these other factors.  I also kept off the value of a private club's social functions, or business development potentials which I do not think are that important and that the advantages can be obtained elsewhere.

Am I out of synch with the general golf population?

[John Foley]

Jason,

I struggled w/ this a few years ago. I had a very good freind join a club and he wanted me to join also. I like the course, but don't love it. The costs were in-line w/ your estimates as is your realization of the plus and minuses. You will never justify the reasoning of joining for $'s only. You've got to take in the other ancillary items. Is it golf only, will your family use it, etc...

However, don't underestimate the comraderie of the membership. Very very difficult to do that in a public course environement.

The swing factor for me was in what I have access to. I live in an area blessed by a fine number of public access courses. All reasonably priced and for the most part access to tee-times and pace of play are no issue at all. Getting to travel to play other courses around the country w/out the monthly nugget hanging over my head is a big plus also.

[John Goodman]

I resisted joining a club for close to fifteen years, mostly on expense and egalitarian grounds.  Having joined one several years back, though, I sort of wish I had done it a long time ago.  (The public courses in my town are quite good, only a tick below the best of the private courses, and better than all but three or four of them).  My principal reasons:

- pace of play- huge edge private
- tee time ease - signifcant edge private, but less significant than five or ten years ago
- using the golf course in business - significant edge private
- being able to play with my wife in couples' events - huge edge private

In making my decision, and in particular in factoring in the cost, I assumed that I would continue to play public courses with at least some regularity, in addition to playing at the club.  I have several golfing buddies who don't always want to spring for the guest fee at my club, so not infrequently we play at one of the (less expensive) public courses.  This makes the effective cost of a round at the club higher for me, but I like playing with those guys enough that it's worth it.            

[A.G._Crockett]

Much of this depends on where you are and the public course market in your area.  I play a lot of rounds each year, and I could not possibly afford to play the amount that I do without a private club membership.  The daily fee green fees here in Atlanta are very high because there are few munis to keep them honest.  Also, my club has no minimums in the grill and/or pro shop so it is a very affordable option.

I didn't grow up as a private club member, and wouldn't be now if I lived in my old hometown, but that is a different place and market.

[mike_malone]

 Spur of the moment golf is another"private" benefit.

[cary lichtenstein]

Jason:

You are not ready to join a private club and may never be. Your list says that loud and clear.

There are lots of reasons for joining  a private club, but it sounds like they don't exist where you live.

[pdrake]

just showing up and getting a game within 15 minutes is probably the single biggest reason after comraderie.........also factor in reciprocal possiblilites if you golf when you travel

[Bob_Huntley]

Sean,

I am not sure about the rest of the country, but here in California dues of $6000.00 a year at a private club seem somewhat low. At most clubs there is a mandatory minimum of $1500.00 a year for food and beveridges. Throw in a $100-$200K initiation and it soon becomes an expensive proposition.

Come to think of it, for $7500.00 a year, I could play 166 rounds at Poppy Hills.  

[Dan_Callahan]

Pace of play, pace of play, pace of play.

Especially on weekends, public courses where I live routinely subject you to 6 hour rounds. At a private course, I can easily play 18—without a tee time—in under 3:30 (making 36-hole days far more likely).

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

You are not ready to join a private club and may never be. Your list says that loud and clear.

There are lots of reasons for joining  a private club, but it sounds like they don't exist where you live.

Cary - you may be right that I will never join a club.  Despite my "logical" list, I tinker with the idea more each year, so you may be wrong.  It's just when I go through the pros and cons from my perspective I have a hard time justifying it.  I also wonder whether the boom in high end public courses will over time hurt private clubs or not.  

[JohnV]

1.  Cost - As an illustration:  Assume 50 rounds per year, $5000 per year as an annual assigned cost of initiation fee (or an assessment) and $500 per month, I come up with a per round cost of $220.  I can choose the public courses in my area without regard to price and average $50 per round.  I can play my public course rounds, and take two major trips to almost anywhere in the world.

Your costs are a lot higher than mine.  I paid a $1600 one time fee to join my club (800 refundable) and $1650 per year.   If it is just you, justifying costs like you are stating is tough.  If you have a wife and kids who play (or swim or play tennis depending on facilities) it can be worth it.

2.  Variety of courses - In my area, there are 20 public courses I enjoy playing.  Many have been built in the last 10 years.  I think it is more enjoyable to play different courses rather than the same one over and over.

Definitely a plus for public, but there is no law saying you can't play other courses.  Also, the private clubs frequently have recipricals with other private courses that you couldn't get on if you weren't a member.

4.  Complaining - When I visit private clubs, I am amazed by how much complaining seems to take place, whether about plans to assess the membership for a clubhouse or course renovations, disputes about leadership of the club, complaints about course quality, complaints about purported sandbaggers or slow players and anything else one can imagine.  (I once heard of a complaint about grass growth in the trees).

This can be a problem, I think that private club members feel they own the course (and frequently do) and so feel they have a right to complain.  Unfortunately that is all many of them do instead of getting involved and fixing things.  Buy earplugs if it bugs you too much.

5.   Treatment of Employees - I am more comfortable with the way customers of a public facility treat employees.  While there are certanly rude public course customers, my skin crawls at what I perceive to be a norm of treating employees of private clubs as servants.

I wouldn't join a club where people don't treat others with respect.  Definitely a turnoff for me.  The clubs I've been a member of didn't have that problem.

6.  Egalitarian ethics - I kind of like the fact that at my primary public course, the people I play with range from doctors or lawyers to the unemployed.  Many of the best players and the most respected golfers are the least successful on a careeer basis.  

This depends on the kind of club you join.  I joined a basically blue-collar club (see My Home Course) and play with all kinds of different players and people.
 

1.  Tee time access (not as big a difference with recent slowing of economy and additional public courses)

Can you really decide at 5PM to go play at any course in the area in the summer?  That is one of the things I love about being a member of a private club.

2.  Pace of play (still a pretty big difference)

Except for a few members.  Peer pressure works well at most clubs.

The ability to go and play at any time is a big win for private over public for me.  It gets me out to play rather than sitting around wondering if I can get on a course and just not trying.  I also enjoy the long term friendships I have made at private clubs  that I wouldn't have made a public courses where I am picking up a game.  When I joined Hannastown in July of 2003, I met more guys who I see every weekend and enjoy being around during my first 4 weeks than I met in nearly a year at a public course out in California.

[mike_malone]

 You can have an impact on the upkeep and architectural elements. It is a poltical headache, but worth it when good things are done.

[Bill Gayne]

A big part of the deal whether to stay with public golf or go private is the structure of the iniation fee and you're commitment to the location. A five figure non refundable upfront fee is a big bite if you think your career may move you geographically. If it's refundable and the club has a waiting list it's less concerning. If you're committed to the local area and control your career moves than the up-front fee is not as big an issue as the cost can be spread across decades.

[frank_D]

brother Jason Topp

i'm sorry if i missed it but i did read your post twice and you make NO mention of the "other" players in your (foursome) or "group" and here is why i ask

1) if you have a "group" you are part of - don't assume they (the group) will want to join or be satified as guests (playing partnerships are like marriages if the "group" has been together for any period of time)

2) playing ONE course ALL the time may or may not be ideal circumstance for the "group" assuming 1 above is not an issue

OR

3) if you don't have a "group" and would rely on partnerships forming at the club - well there isn't enough space on this website for me to list all the potential pitfalls and perils associated with that interloping idea

let me suggest you join a club as a "social" membership (say you have meals there on a regular non-threatening basis) with the ability to quit at some point as a trial period -  before you plunge into the golf - otherwise it may be like buying a boat and you know a boat owners TWO happiest days

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jason,
I don't think you are out of sync at all, you are raising many questions that anyone should consider before they take the plunge into private club membership.

There are alternatives, like Empire Golf in the NY/NJ/CT area, where you select a 'Home' course to join and have a selection of others to boot. You could also look into something like www.golfmembercountryclub.com where for a reasonable($100) fee you can gain access to selected private clubs in your area or other privates when travelling.
   

[S. Huffstutler]

The hell with all the reasons why not....if I could afford it, I would LOVE to be a member of a private club. I am not interested in the social functions, politics or living anywhere near a golf course, but I would absolutely love to be able to play on my terms, when I want to play on a whim without all of the planning that currently goes with a round a of golf. I would join the crappiest club in town to be able to do that.

steve

[Rob_Waldron]

Jason

According to Webster: CLUB: an association of persons for some common object usually jointly supported and meeting periodically; also : a group identified by some common characteristic

In this case the common denominator is: GOLF

One of the primary reasons to join a club is the opportunity to associate with a group of people who enjoy the game of golf so much that they are willing to pay an initiation fee and monthly dues in order to be among similarly motivated people.

If you try to determine the average cost of a round, stick with the publinks.

Clubs can serve as a primary source for social and recreational activities. Clubs also provide a great source of  professional service providers. My attorney, accountant, Dentist, Broker and Insurance agent are all members of my Club.

You can still play public golf courses....only now you can do it with your fellow club members. Private Clubs provide much greater opportunities for access to other private clubs. This can be through inter-club events, reciprocity, as well as home and home events with acquaintences from other private clubs.

Having been around private clubs my whole life may make me a bit prejudiced, but being a private club member has provided me with much better access to the best courses in my area.

Of course the key is joining a club that suits you. I know many people who have been disappointed after joining a private club where they did not know anyone. The key is to get involved with the "Club Groups" by participating in member events.

Anyone with a handicap below 15 should have no problem getting a game. Generally the lower your handicap the easier it is to get a game. Low and middle handicap players typically have no interest in playing with anyone over an 18.

Good Luck!

[Andy Doyle]

I totally agree with the comment that you can't justify joining most private clubs purely on a financial analysis - the "cost-peer-round" analysis almost always works out to be a terrible investment unless you play a tremendous amount of golf.

I also agree that it totally depends on where you live.  I live in metro Atlanta - in-town (inside the Perimeter as we say), and finding good, affordable golf is difficult without driving significant distances.  Intown we have 2 ends of the spectrum - beat up, crowded muni courses or very expensive private clubs.  I would love to join a private club for 1 reason - convenient access to a quality golf course and practice facilities.  I live about 2 miles from Druid Hills Golf Club, and drive by it every day on my way to/from work.  I would love to join this club, but after the course remodel (see Bob Cupp interview in Feature Interview) the initiation fee is $50k+.

If I lived in the suburbs/exurbs I would probably choose to live close to a good, affordable course that I would join.  As it is, my golfing buddies and I bounce around a lot - we drive out to some of the nicer daily fee courses when we have the time, otherwise we play some of the munis like Brown's Mill.  I joined the Stone Mountain Golf Club just to have a place to keep my handicap, but it's not really my home course as I play there only 2-3 times a year.  The closest thing I have to a home course is Charlie Yates, which is the public course that was built as part of the neighborhood renovation of East Lake.  It's the place I play most frequently, but many of my friends don't like to play there much as it is an executive course, par 58.

Andy

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jason,

There is a 3rd option, semi-private golf.  You can be a member of a course open to the public, and it usually will be less expensive to join/monthly dues, + have members (and staff) to get to know/play with, + have club tournaments to play in, + have designated member tee times (usually weekend mornings), + get to meet new people (if you like that), with the public players that will be playing there.  My club currently costs $1K to join and ~$2K per year in dues.  No minimums or assessments.

Obviously, it's likely to be more crowded than a private club.  My club isn't overly crowded enough of the time for me to be unhappy about it, especially since I usually play during the non-peak times (weekend afternoons).

Being the frugal person that I am, I still partly agonize over getting my money's worth at my club, even though I should forget about it.  If I dropped my membership and just paid per play, I'd easily spend less than half the money I currently do.  Probably closer to 60%-65% less, but few tournaments to play in.

Now that I'm taking my oldest daughter out to the club to introduce her to the game, it gets infinitely more worth it.  

[Michael Whitaker]

Jason - most of the logical reasons for joining a private club go beyond the dollars and cents of a round of golf. Most people join a private club for the contacts and friendships they will make. If you are an up-and-coming businessman who can benefit from social and business contacts, then a private club is a good decision for you... especially if you have a young family who can take advantage of the club's facilities.

The bottom line is this: if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it. Joining a private club is not an expense... it's an investment.

Now, having said that, I have a number of friends who feel trapped by their private club memberships. Their families are gone, their businesses are mature, and their climb up the social ladder is over. They would love to have the freedom to travel here and yon playing the best new courses. But, they can't afford it. They are saddled with monthly dues and minimums that make it difficult to justify not playing their home course. Every time they venture out to experience a new course they feel they are paying double. Again... if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Michael,

If your friends are that unhappy, there's (usually) an easy way to stop the agony.  Unless there's a waiting list to get out (if that's the rule), just quit.

[Michael Whitaker]

Scott - You hit the nail on the head... there is currently a reverse waiting list and they can't get out. Also, for some of them it would be social suicide to drop their club membership. Their lives are so entwined around "the club" they would be lost without it.

Now, this is not necessarly a bad thing... many of my friends love the comfort and security their club memberships afford them. "The Club" is truly their second home, and their memberships represent an investment in their peace of mind. What's that worth? Priceless.

[Steve Lang]

 

Let's see.. for $350/monthI've got 99 holes of golf access x 3 sets of tees.. lots of variety

I put in 100 - 120 rounds a year, Sheila probably 125-140 rounds.. thats 12x350 = $4200.. say 250 rounds =  ~$17/round ... for usually very good quality play.  Walk 99% of the time..

mens golf assoc 1 tourney a month

womens golf assoc weekly tourneys

couples golf once a month

ladies interclub once a month

ladies challenge cup once a month

sr mens interclub (as substitute occasionally)

several places to practice for free

several places to eat and drink and if desired play cards etc..

seasonal club functions.. you get to meet and know more people than you may think in a club setting

place to take the boss or clients for an afternoon get-away.. priceless

and..

today left work at 2:00, cause it was 75 F and clear, on course at 2:45, played 9 holes in 90 minutes with ms sheila, went out for 4 more..

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jason, just a couple of thoughts.
You do not have to justify how you spend your money.  Everyone spends money "carelessly" on something.  I have a non-golfing friend who just spent $5,000 on a watch.  He explained to me, "I spent the money, but in a year I still have the watch.  You spend that much on dues and in a year you get to do it again."  

I enjoy belonging to a club.  I like to get the same waiter, locker room attendant, pro-shop staff, caddy.  I enjoy being with them.  I like the fact that I can drive up to the club at 10:00 on a saturday and they find a game for me.

I like the members, and buddies I play with.  I enjoy the pool, the tennis courts, the fishing etc.

I liked having a place for my kids to have fun.  I liked it that we could play only three holes when they were little.

I like that when I come and the first tee is crowded and I am alone that the caddy master will drive me out to three because no one is out there.

I belong to country clubs for my family and golf clubs for me.

I like it that on a weekday I can get a buddy and we can walk and carry our own bags and play 18 in under three hours.

I like calling the grill room from the course and asking the cook to make my favorite sandwhich so I can eat it at the turn.

I like it that when my son came home to visit and I asked the pro if he had a sandwedge my son could borrow, he gave him one to keep. (I later paid him a token $50 for it.)

I like it that when I go to another city my pro can arrange for me to play at another private club and I can charge my dinner back to my home club.

Sorry, I guess that is more that a couple of thoughts.  But you get the idea.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

With all of the discussion here, much of it right on, the one thing that makes me hate to think of public golf is:  

The four or six or nine holes I can play after work.  Try going to a public course and tell them you only have time to play four holes.  At my club that loop would be 10, 16-18.  

I might do this three or four days a week when I don't have time for 18.  This is good for my game and my attitude!

Just ask my wife!