Uniqueness in Long Beach, CA

[Mike_Golden]

I played the Rec Park muni in Long Beach last week and saw something so unique (at least in my experience) I was wondering whether it exists anywhere else.

The 5th hole, a par 3, actually has two completely different holes that are alternated during the week.  Option #1 is a downhill, 115 yard par 3 to a small, undulating green, while Option #2 is an uphill, almost blind, 150 yard hole to a severely sloped green front to back.  I've only played the uphill version but the downhill one seems like lots of fun and I'm looking forward to another round when it is in play.   I believe the Emperor has some photos that this thread might encourage him to post.  The next time I play the course I'll make sure I take my camera and get both versions.

Has anyone else seen anything like this or did Billy Bell, Sr. build something that is truly unique in the world?

[Jason Topp]

I know of some similar examples.  The 2nd hole at Wakonda in Des Moines, Iowa (Langford) has a short 120 yd (or so) par 3 to a small green that is relatively flat and an uphill 160 yard (approximate) hole.  (I've seen an aerial of the course on this in that thread with all the aerials).

I've also played some other courses with alternate holes or greens for par threes.  Cog Hill (Dubsdread) #2; Links at Northfork (Ramsey, MN) #7 and I think one of the holes at Lahinch has alternates.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike,
A great set of "dual" holes with greens as equally fun for a public course in Southern California. The tee for this paticular hole originally was at the fence line, back right, another 25 yards from this picture. Its still there, you can almost tee of of it right now! Its a small little thing too!

Those grassy hollows used to be Billy Bell bunkers and I'm sure it added even more dramatics from the yardage it was played at.

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike,

I thought Tommy and I might be the only people here to write about Rec Park......how nice it is to see someone else chime in!

Having played Rec Park many times, I can testify to how interesting the downhill version of #5 plays (as opposed to the uphill version that was okay but nothing special).

In the years I played the course (late 80s/early 90s), the downhill #5 featured a very firm green, so firm that a downhill 105 yard sand wedge was usually a really tough shot. Land in the middle of the green and bogey or double bogey could be expected.

What one had to do is just barely fly the bunker fronting the green. Then, one might be given a chance for a birdie putt.

No matter how precise one had to be - maybe ridicuously so - it was always alot of fun.

Rec Park, by the way, suffers from horrible pace of play, but has a number of interesting shots to be played, especially with the technology pre Big Bertha. Either Tommy or Geoff Shackelford once told me that no less than Ben Hogan himself used to play the course prior playing a place called Riviera.

Rec Park s a pretty cool place, a muni that makes you question what the trend towards upscale public courses really offers.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The second shots on number 9 at Pacific Dunes are the same. One green downhill and the other a semi blind uphill.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tim brings up a interesting point, the bottom hole is a much tougher test the the upper hole, but that's only because those grassy hollows are no longer filled with sand that's staring you in the face another 30 yards back. They are both really fun golf holes.

Tim, Last time I played Rec Park about two months ago, the round took about 4:45 minutes to play, and it wasn't that bad of a wait, but on only a few, very few holes--all the suspect ones! #2, 3, 5, 13, & 16. Those always seem to invite slow play, and I don't think its because of design either. More lack of ettiquite!  But this is a public golf course. Its worht rejoicing about because Rec Park is only like $30.00 on the weekends to walk, and its a nice walk.

Truthfully, I like this course as much as I like Eastmoreland in Portland, and thats saying something! I bring it up just because of Michael Dugger posting pictures of Great Blue that's another Rose City course.

[ed_getka]

Are the holes going in opposite directions? How is the walk to #6 tee?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ed, Completely one hole opposes the other or simply put, are parallel. It works fine because you just walk across the old entrance road, back when it was the entrance for the former Vriginia CC site and your on the next tee.

What's even better is the 6th! Now you want to talk about a golf hole that needs restoring! Lots f trees in the middle of old bunkers--all kinds of stuff.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Here is a somewhat better picture so you could see the what Mike is talking about. The better of the two holes you can see the bunker there to the left of the picture while the other half shows the tee for the downhill and the green for the uphill hole. (Hope this makes sense)

Sorry for the Black & White, I was trying to get a idea what the shot might have been back in the old days. This shot is in fact from the old tee, only the camera is zoomed in a bit. With the addition of those bunkers, I can only imagine it was one tough SOB.

[David_Tepper]

Lakeside GC (Toluca Lake, north of LA) has a dual par-3 (two greens, one teeing area). I cannot recall if it is on the front- or back-nine. One green plays about 95-110 yds, the other is downhill, about 145-160 yds.  

[Tim_Weiman]

Tommy,

Wow! To play Rec Park in 4:45 was just about impossible during my time in Long Beach.

Again, it really is a fun golf course......not the kind we discuss here, but maybe the kind we should......at least a bit more often.

P.S. I can still remember playing the course and #18 for the last time, now more than ten years ago........the approach from about 185 yards.......sidehill lie to a back right pin.......it's funny how one shot that doesn't mean anything to anyone else can be so memorable.

I guess that's golf!

[Andy Doyle]

I had a chance to play in Ireland in November, and 2 of the courses that I played (Lahinch and The European Club) had 2 alternate holes.

Lahinch had 2 alternate par 3's - for #5 and #11.  There was no mention of #5 "a" in the par saver - quite a bummer as I didn't get to play the famed "Dell" hole.  In fact, quite the opposite - instead of a blind tee shot over a dune to a green in a hollow, I got a par 3 with an uphill tee shot to a clearly visible green up on a knob.  Number 11 and 11"a" are side-by-side, slightly offset par 3's - I got to play 11a which was a nice hole, but #11 green is set right back against the beach - I would have like to play it.

The European Club has 2 alternate holes, substituting par 3's for 4's on the front (#7) and the back (#12) nine.  I played the original holes, but the par 3's looked like fun, and could potentially be played as part of the round to make a 20-hole course.

AD

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Just an idea of what the bunkers on the uphill portion may have looked like. At least from memory the fingers are close, but not accurate.

The bunkers on this hole were gone by 1938, and if I get by the library tomorrow, I'll check and see if they were there in 1928, just after when the course was built.

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy, are you saying Rec Park IS the old Virginia CC, or that they are side by side?  I remember playing a match at VCC, UCSB vs Long Beach State, and winning the BB match by myself against their #5 and #6 guys -- they were pissed!  Those who played golf matches in the 60's (pre all medal play in college golf) will know what I'm talking about!  The 18th was a neat hole with a huge swale below the green on a semi-reachable par 5.  

[A_Clay_Man]

How's the green sloped? Looks like a Redan. Any chance there was a bunker long right?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Panhandle Bill,
Yes, Rec Park and the old Viriginia CC/Virginia Hotel Golf Course are one in the same, only a completely different routing!

Currently I'm conspiring with a friend on the Virginia CC club history and I have found some amazing images of the course in a MUCH different time.  The entire Southwestern portion of the property was a forest of tall Yucalyptus trees that continued all the way to the Colorado Lagoon and Long Beach's Marine Stadium.  7th street was non-existent and the many of the holes played on what is now on the 9 hole "Little Rec." It was a somewhat geometric, sand or oil green course laid out by Willie Watson. Originally 9 holes and opened in 1909, the course then expanded to a full 18 sometime around 1913.  

Now the fun part!

Located in what now comprises the 18th, 10th and 11th holes was once a natural lake! A pier junted out on to that lake and contained a tee box for the much feared for its time 264 yard, par 4, 16th hole which required a carry of the lake from the tee and then headed straight up the hill to the clubhouse which is where the current Rec Park clubhouse parking lot is now located!

There is not one similarity in any of the two routings. In fact its almost a bizarre original routing as the walk between #15 green and #16 tee is more then 400 or 500 yards!

I have the plan to prove it!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Adam, Lets just say that the original green more then likely sloped right to left and yes, that indeed is was of a very uphill Redan nature. It wasn't a Redan, but it more then likely played like one--thats why I showed it as such in my art work from last night.

Figure also that those trees on the right side were not there. the shot feed right to the hole.

[Tim_Weiman]

Bill,

Present day Virginia and Rec Park don't sit side by side, but are within just a few miles, if i recall correctly.

As for the history......Tommy is the man.....or maybe Geoff.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tommy,

Oh my God.....now Little Rec enters the discussion.....this might be the finest golf course in the United States....surpassed only by Little Met, a Stanley Thompson design in Cleveland.

Happy to see the good stuff bubble to the top!

P.S. Do you think a place like Frairs Head will ever reach the level of Little Rec?

[A_Clay_Man]

What's the length? It was your artwork that brought it out. Reminded me of the 4th at Lawsonia at 203y

[T_MacWood]

Tommy
When did Billy Bell design this course, and where would you place in his design portfolio.

[Bill_McBride]

So Tommy and Tim, when I played there in 1962, would that have been old (current Rec Park) or new (present day) Virginia CC?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Adam,
The image does not fully portray the yardage, or at least the extent of the shot required to carry those bunkers if they did exist. Tim is right, without them, the hole is a kitten. Even if your in the deep grass thats filling them. Its just not that hard of a shot.

Tom,
Surprisingly Bell didn't touch the course until 1926. I would have thought he had gotten there sooner, but the course played much the same as it was originally until that time.

However when Bell redid the course, it seemed to be a winner right from the start. Lots of big names played there and they raved about it.  Although during the depression they let a lot of bunkers go. At least in the 1938 aerial they show they were gone, but the remanants are all there waiting to be rejuvenated.

Certain holes also changed, more specifically #15 & 16, which #15 more then likely played too close to the road. The direction of the hole was moved towards the 14th fairway where a massive greensite was shaped and built. The 16th then was also redirected and it too has a huge massive grass bunker screaming for restoration.

I think that Rec Park may be one of the best examples to really study Billy Bell if you can look past some of the flaws--like slow play.

I think if it was in the proper hands, it could be one winner of a golf course--something you would enjoy playing day-in and day out--Brookside maybe more of a stringent test, but you can still see Bell just clawing to get out at Rec Park. Now we are talking PUBLIC golf here, as well as orignal Billy Bell work. we aren't comparing it to El Caballero or Stanford.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill,
You played the 1926 Billy Bell design. The Willie Watson course ceased to exist after 1925.

[Patrick Hitt]

The 4 course complex at Cog Hill in Lemont, IL has 4 sets of side by side par 3 holes. Some of the holes like the 4th on Cog #2 are side by side. The 17th on #1 actually crisscrosses. Even the Dubsdread course now has 2 par 3 2nd holes.

All this talk of California makes the 6-12 inches of snow falling harder to take.