Enthusiasm vs. salesmanship

[Tom_Doak]

Tim Liddy on another thread brought up the subject of self-promotion, and was thereafter accused of jealousy.  I think it's a topic worth talking about, independently of any particular project; and I hope that Ran will chime in over the holidays to make his wishes known.

I don't see anything wrong with the architect reporting on a golf course that he is currently working on.  Whether this is the correct forum for that or not, I understand there are mixed views; but I presume we would all be told by Ran if he felt any of us were stepping out of line.

What I don't like to see, and what I hate when a client expects it of me, is the promotion of a project which is trying to sell memberships so that funds will be available to build it.  To me that is clearly more of a "sales" function and though I understand the need for it, I don't remember where in my contract it says that I have to help sell memberships.  

Unfortunately, the higher up you go in this business, the more this sales work is expected of you.  I'd be willing to bet it wasn't Jack Nicklaus's idea to put up a billboard in Tryon, Nebraska, but I KNOW his clients believe that's one reason they're paying him the big bucks.

Projects in the Sand Hills are a bit different than most, because in a lot of cases the golf holes are already lying there just waiting for short grass.  But the true excitement comes when you start building the golf course; anything before is a mixture of excitement and sales.  

Sometimes I get asked questions on this board about projects a little bit prematurely, and feel like I need to say something in response, but I've tried not to say too much about them.  In truth, I don't want to get excited about a project at that point because until it's funded, I'm still not sure it's really going to happen, and it is awful to fall in love with a project and have it flounder [for me, Erin Hills would be in that category].

I would be interested to know what others think of a standard for this.  And don't base your response on how you'd feel if it was me; try to set a standard that you'd hold for Donald Trump, too.

[Mark_Amundson]

Tom:

I see no problem with the architect commenting on projects they are working on.  No matter what you say, some will construe it to be promotion.  There is no person better suited to answer questions and provide insight into a project than the architect.  I would much rather see you or other architects make comments and answer questions on this site than have the masses speculate as to why something was or was not done, when most of the time the speculation is off base.  I have commented a number of times about Sutton Bay mostly because I am probably the best person to do so, given Graham does not spend much time on this site.  I do not feel my comments have been "sales related", they have simply been informational, explanatory, and my opinions.  I would hope the information about new and upcoming projects keeps coming forward from those in the know.

On a side note, Graham Marsh played 2 rounds at Cape Kidnappers recently and was very impressed.  I hope to get to the other part of the world again some day and take in your course.

Mark Amundson

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom- Are these projects that need the 'sales architect' foreseeable before the fact? If so, why not make it another tier of service and charge accordingly, or creatively?

[Mike Nuzzo]

If the treehouse wants to read about your work or projects then it's appropriate and entertaining, assuming its fits within Ran's guidelines.  Over time if you're a mountebank (new word from Bob) many will smell it.

Books are a great example.  This website is a media outlet.  If someone had a new book on a topic everyone was interested in why not tell us about it...

Cheers

[Mike Nuzzo]

As for Donald Trump...
I was thinking about Matt Ward's winter gathering.  I had an vision of instead of a round table on affoardable golf ... have a debate.
Pit the Donald against Baxter.  Luxury vs. affordable.
I bet it would be very enlightening and entertaining.  

[TEPaul]

To be honest, I couldn't care less if something said on here looks and smells like salesmanship and self promotion. Basically all I want is to know things. It seems to me like accusations of self promotion or salesmanship or implications on here of same come from those of our contributors on here who're in the business and hardly ever from those of us on here who aren't. So I don't care what's called enthusiasm or salesmaship, I'm glad to hear anything.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

Like you, my agreements don't typically require me to sell anything, but I don't mind helping a client promote the course.  However, since there are specialty skills to everything, I realize I should stay away from membership sales, and hope the salespeople stay away from design.

As an example, my first design was a private club north of Atlanta, and since I was there, the sales manager thought it would help if I rode the course with him and a prospective member, in my boots, etc. describing the wonderfulness that was to come.

However, the sales rep kept taking this gentleman to see the view from the "senior" tees as I was describing things.  I had my doubts in general as to the wisdom of this approach, which was confirmed when the gray haired man finally said,

"Dammit, I'm only 45 years old."

[ian]

I personally wish the other architects on this site would post more about there work, and I would like to see more from a few who I assume won't post(Kelly comes immediately to mind).

I've gone to see places like Sebonic because I'm always trying to learn from other architects. I think many are doing more interesting work than I am. If architects (or friends/fans/stalkers of well known architects) won't post, I won't know what clever new ideas are taking place. This is one of the main reasons I come to the site.

For the first couple of years I remained completely quiet about what we/I did. I was happy to answer questions and post photos (mainly old originally) of places I was working at.

Finally, one very kind regular suggested that I post about the company, since nobody knew us and a few had been curious. He mentioned he understood the hesitation to avoid being labeled as self-promosional, but he didn't see it that way. I eventually started posting work whenever asked about it, but have remained cautious about being perceived as "going to far"

[ed_getka]

I agree with Tom Paul, in that I am interested in hearing about anything someone has to post about new projects, existing courses, etc... If someone is self -promoting and the project turned out to be a bomb, then guys here are going to let us know. That is more preferable to me than reading some gushing crap in one of the trade mags that I can't ask questions of and clarify things.
   I would love it if all the architects that post here or lurk here would update us quarterly or whenever a new project gets up and running.

[Jason Hines]

All,

Speaking as a complete novice who enjoys this site as a hobby, the genuine posts are the reason I am here.  I do more reading/listening/learning than I do talking on GCA because I am no expert.  But, one of the things I am good at in this world is sales, so the “phony” posts are very easy to pick out for most of us and does not bother me.  I would not worry about it and keep the good discussions coming.  

Happy New Year,
Jason.

[Lou_Duran]

Architects, contractors, superintendents-

Please post on your current and upcoming work to your heart's delight and principals' consent.  I think that most of us find it interesting and instructive to follow projects from the concept stage through and past the grand opening.  I would like even greater detail, understanding of course that much that goes on must remain below the radar.

As to the sales aspect, it seems to me that a hungry architect would do what he can subject to propriety and good taste to further his chances of getting his course built (and collect his fee).  It may be a pain in the ass sometimes and perhaps downright unsavory for someone who is shy or introverted, but getting the work off the drafting table and onto the ground should be paramount.  Perhaps the attitude should be one of being thankful and complimented that his (the architect's) skills and uniqueness are valued; that he is no longer generic and his product an undifferentiated commodity.

Those guys paying the high six and low-seven figure design fees do so for the brand recognition.  The package or level of service that is negotiated with the architect goes a long ways to determing the amount of compensation.  Dallas National as a Harvey Schwartz design would have been a total failure.  With the Fazio brand and several dog and pony shows, it has been a resounding success.  Fazio comes across to me as being a shy, reserved man who probably does not enjoy being in the limelight like, say, Donald Trump.  But he does know which side his bread is buttered on.

Tom Doak and others, by all means, SELL.  Contrary to what one hears in the artsy and celebrity circles, Sales is a very noble profession.  It keeps these more "cerebral" folks in demand and in the limelight.          

[Jeff_Brauer]

I've gone to see places like Sebonic because I'm always trying to learn from other architects. I think many are doing more interesting work than I am.

Ian.....Ian.....Ian.....

Sorry to open 05 with a gentle lecture, but I think you've gone outside the bounds of good golf design salesmanship with that statement!

Never, never, never, admit others do more interesting work than you, at least as a blanket statement, even considering the relative anonymity of the internet!  I also like seeing others work, since I learn from it all, too. (sometimes the how not to as well as the how to!)

My sentiments on others work reflects a statement from some rocker, perhaps John Lennon regarding another songwriters songs (I think Paul Simon) when he said that when listening to Simon's songs, he wondered why he never thought of certain riffs or lyrics the same way.  He wasn't saying his stuff wasn't interesting, he merely allowed that others came to the end result in far different thought patterns.

Like music, golf design (assuming reasonablly talented designers are doing it) is always interesting in the differences in thought process and final results, as well as general style and approach.

Lou,

To respond to your post, I have the following going:

A new course in Newton, KS, which is handicapped by railroad tracks on all......wait a minute, which harkens back to the early days of Scotland by playing "hard by the cinders"......

A new course on Lake Tawakoni in East Texas, which I am considering doing in CB Mac style, promising to create something "truly unique" in the DFW market.

Renvoation of the second Indian Creek Course, but much more limited.

A master plan for Stevens Park Golf Course in Dallas, with reconstruction to follow.

A nine holer in New Mexico and a nine hole par 3 near Waxahachie.

Each and every one promises to be my greatest masterpiece ever!   I should add, these will be "playable by all" while providing a true challenge for the low handicapper.....(sorry, couldn't resist the salesmanship.....)

Seriously, there seems to be much more in the works this year as opposed to last.  Not all the projects are high end, design extravaganzas, as like a few years ago, but there are some encouraging signs, business wise.

[ed_getka]

Jeff,
   Do any of these projects have good land you are excited to work with? Do any of them have a developer/owner who is willing to let you do your thing creatively? Good luck in the coming year. Congrats on the Quarry award.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ed,

Given that I am a devoted train watcher, and about 20 trains a day go by the golf course (Hey, even golf course architects need a hobby to get away) the Newton project will have my full undevided attention.  

You are right that creative freedom helps the design process.  One reason the Quarry is as good ias it is, is that I essentially had that - and a fairly unique site.  The city has let me have a free hand, and an adequate budget, so I think it will be pretty good.  However, the management company have yet to be chosen, so I may still get some unsolicited input that waters things down.  Also, most of the site is dead flat and it is a housing course, so maximum creativity is required.

Having a low fee course in Lawrence, and a high fee course in Manhattan, as well as a Diddel restoration in Wichita, I am noodling hard on how to make this once again look like it wasn't done by the same archie.

The east Texas course has a lakefront hole, and some good land, but the first five holes are flat.  Its also within housing, but the land planner insisted on having minimal road crossings, so it's a core with fingers course.

Both redos are older courses on nice sites for Texas, and I think they have potential.

It seems that outer ring towns, and housing developers where it makes sense are the ones who will be golf developers in the next few years, along with a small number of high end clubs, which never seem to slow down much.  I'll have to get used to housing projects again, after a nice string of projects without having to worry about it.

[ian]

Jeff,

I work almost exclusively in renovation, and have had a wonderful run with a series of important (to me anyway)
restoration projects in recent years. While I enjoy the work a great deal and have obviously dedicated a career to this, I find seeing other "good" new projects as far more exciting than what I do. Restoration is about obsession with details, new design is about creativity. I just find new work more interesting, probably its not what I do very often any more.

I freely admit that when I look at your latest project, Tom's Pacific Dunes, Coore's Friar's Head; I long for the opportunity to express my own ideas of golf design. Possibly some of that frustration came out in that comment.

[ed_getka]

Jeff,
   A core with fingers course? Are the fingers "canyons" of houses that holes go into and out of? Thanks for the feedback. I suppose with those train tracks nearby you'll being doing a homage to #1 Prestwick.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ed,

From the air, a core with fingers would look like a frog run over and flattened on the pavement, with a center body area (range and clubhouse, plus a few holes) with its legs spread out in different directions - always in pairs of two holes.  This increases housing frontage, but avoids the condo canyon on both sides and virtually eliminates road crossings, although, typically, you must cross a main road to get to the back nine.

I plan on using the railway as a hazard on more than a few holes, similar to Prestwick and others in Kansas.  I hope to introduce the "new" strategy of bouncing the tee shot off a slow moving box car back into the fairway.  Based on my round at Prestwick, I can tell you - I got that shot!

Ian,

Understood.  When I left Killian and Nugent, I vowed I would not concentrate on remodels, preferring new design better.  I have pretty much kept my word, although, in this market, we are all reconsidering......

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
I don't see anything wrong with it all, and frankly, I don't think you should either. In fact, I'm scratching my head here wondering why you of all people would find any fault for it at all!

Why?

What about your latest success, Barnboogle Dunes?

While some of us may know or not know some of the more intimate paticulars, I look as Barnboogle to be a "GCA Baby" so-to-speak. Its vision was of course perfected by you, Mike Clayton and Greg Ramsey, but Greg did in fact solicit many here for help, and by way of others, maybe even some here found a way for you to build the golf course.

And do you want to know something? Golf now has another great course because of it! So everytime you bring it up about just how good Barnboogle Dunes really is, we are here to listen and hope and try to make it there someday. Also because you tell us everyday just how good it is!

So why on earth should it be any different for a project of Gil's in Nebraska with Geoff Shackelford & Jim Wagner assisting in its design and construction?

I look forward to WALKING AND PLAYING both of these courses someday really soon, and I will trumpet the success of Golf Club Atlas for teaching me of these very sacred grounds to practice my compulsion! If it wasn't being talked about with great enthusiasm here, Barnboogle would be thae lonliest course in Tasmania we never heard of!

Speaking of which, I remember reading once about a sandy dunes on the Southern Oregon coast that I spent an entire night into the early morning hours trying to find out any sort of information regarding its existence. All by way of internet and the website that allowed many to find there way to Golf Club Atlas--The old Golfweb Golf Architecture Discussion Forum!  By 7:00 am the next morning, I had found and talked to Shorty Dow, resident and caretaker back then of "The Bandon Dunes" and later that day he snail-mailed several aerial and ground images of the Bandon course under construction. I still have them to this day!

So, after reading your blurb in the Confidential Guide about the property; spending the night trying to find out about the actual course and then hearing Shorty's words, "Come on out here! We have gorse everywhere!," Then posting those images on the old forum, it got out by word of mouth and added a lot of enthusiasm and salesmanship to this phenominal golfing destination for those of us who worshipped Golf Architecture on a very different level back then. My how much we have learned since then!

John Vanderborght, Peter Pittock and Mike Erdmann would later add more pictures once they made their visits down South, and soon a vast enthusiasm was born for not just Bandon Dunes, but other courses right next to it!

I also thank the fact I got to know Shorty because his passion for the place was never-ending, and it sold me as one of America's Greatest Resorts.

And it still grows today!

If that is salesmanship, then I'll buy whatever anyone is selling, anytime!

[tonyt]

I'd rather get updates, biased or otherwise, than nothing at all. Those reading can decide for themselves if they need to filter any posts for separation between subjective and objective content.

This is a forum, not a senate committee

Many of the pics, comments and updates that have come from inside sources have been among the most enjoyed and treasured posts on here, for me anyway. And if the horse's mouth is subjective, it is still the horse's mouth and will know more about it than an objective one time visitor or web browser.

[Sean Walsh]

The threat of what people on here would say if an architect was to over-hype his coming design is enough that the salesmanship angle is likely to be avoided.  

As for enthusiasm, if what you are doing is golf arcitecture, guess what?  I'm not doing it (like many others who post here) and am never likely to do it.  

The closest I get is to go to a course and think about what is laid out in front of me or log on here and discuss a passion.

Those people with hands on experience are invaluable to this site and I would encourage any information they wish to provide us.  Leave us to sort the wheat from the chafe.
 

[TEPaul]

"I would be interested to know what others think of a standard for this.  And don't base your response on how you'd feel if it was me; try to set a standard that you'd hold for Donald Trump, too."

TomD:

I read your initial post again. It seems as if you're asking us if we think it's OK for you or anyone else in the business to discuss their courses and projects on here in such a way where it might seem like excessive enthusiasm or self promotion is being exhibited.

For my part, I'd say just go ahead and do it---it's definitely OK by me. Face it, neither you nor Liddy nor Nicklaus nor Coore and Crenshaw nor any other architect out there will probably sell any memberships (or lose any either) on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com's discussion section through excessive enthusiasm or self promotion.

So why worry about something like that? As far as showing enthusiasm for a project that might end up not getting built--hey, that's life, it happens. Does that mean you shouldn't show enthusiasm along the way because it may not happen? Not to me it doesn't.

Frankly I'd just as soon see all the architects on here show all the enthusiasm they may have for anything. I'd like to see them all promote the hell out of anything they're doing if they feel it's worth it. Let us be the judge of what's going on in our opinions. None of us were born yesterday.

Frankly, I'd like to see all our architect contributors on here and all those in the business in any form not only show enthusiasm for what they're doing, I'd like to see them show enthusiasm for what others are doing or on the flip side show outright criticism and loathing for what others are doing!  

What I'd like to see on here is a real dynamic---as much of one as we all can possibly muster. This place is best when it's like a barroom brawl on Friday night in Dodge, when opinions are unfettered and flying. I want to see all our architects act like some cowboy who walks into the barroom and says;

"I'm the best and if anyone in here doesn't think so, come on over here and try to take me on!"

And also says;

"Hey Doak and Nicklaus, I see you two sitting over there like a couple of little sniffing babies. What if I tell you I think what you two are doing at Sebonak looks like and will be like a poop-laden messy little sand-box and if you think otherwise get up, unstrap your guns and take me on!"

The reason most of us on here who aren't in the business don't mind showing enthusiasm for things and even blatantly promoting something is because we know we have nothing to lose. Obviously to some degree and for a variety of reasons those in the business on here feel they have something to lose if they say what they really feel in an unfettered way.

You know I'm sort of joking here but the truth is I wish I wasn't. The good news is if you acted like the old Tom Doak of 15 or so years ago at least today they couldn't reprimmand you and your ASGCA membership. The last I heard you're still not a member probably because you don't want to be.

You're a smart man Tom Doak!  

[TEPaul]

I want to see all our architect contributors on here be more like C.B. Macdonald was. It sure seems to me he was massively enthusiastic about the things he did and believed in and promoted the hell out of them and himself too if he felt like it. It seems like he didn't mind being critical of others either for whatever his reasons were. If he ever felt like he had something to lose for being the way he was he sure didn't seem to act like it.

And look where it got him---they ended up calling him things like the "Father of American Architecture" and "The Evangelist of Golf"!  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

I was just about to cite CBM as a promoter, probably The Donald of his time.  Didn't Ross also promote his courses ?
Didn't Pete Dye in his early years promote his courses ?

Tom Doak clearly promotes his courses.

So what ?   What's wrong with that ?

If he doesn't take pride in them, who will ?

There are different degrees of promotion, some more subtle then others.

Promotion tends to dissipate as the quality and quantity of the architects product increases, unless the developer makes it a condition of the particular arrangement.

There is nothing wrong with promoting your own work.
While it's nice to have others promote it for you, who amongst you isn't proud of your children and their accomplishments.  Who amonst you haven't "promoted" them or their accomplishments at one time or another ?

Tom Doak,

Keep up the good work and keep on informing us on the status of works in progress.  Keep promoting that which you feel merits attention, accolades and promotion.

The ultimate proof is in the pudding and so far, it's seems to have passed the taste test.

[ian]

Every architect promotes, or they have no work.

Some market aggressively (most successful architects now have a marketing or promotions person), some subtly, but we all have to do it to get work. Taking a writer out to play golf at a new course without giving a "speach" about the project is promotion. Posting on this site is promotion, doing an interview or attending an opening is promotion. Writing a book or an article is promotion. Some sells are softer than others, but each technique goes after a different type of client.

Since jealousy is also mentioned. I find that architects seem come from two camps. Some architects have only limited ego and enjoy the work of others and show little jealousy to the success of others, and generaly wish they had the site rather than condem another architect (rarely are these ever the great ones). The other camp is very competative and like to trumpet their superior knowledge and are often openly critical of other work (this group represents the best architects and the largest failures in the industry).

[Andy Doyle]

From the discussions I've followed and the opinions I've read on this DB, I think there is little danger of this group being influenced or impressed by overt salesmanship.

I enjoy this site because I want to learn more about golf courses and architecture - who better to learn from than those who actually design the things?

Keep it coming.  I have confidence that any excessive self-promotion would fall apart under a barrage of questioning or deafening silence.
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