The most underrated state for golf ???

[Forrest Richardson]

The state of mind.

[Lou Duran]

Texas, without a doubt.  No top-tier classic gems, not a lot of beautiful surrounds and eye candy, but a whole bunch of solid courses throughout the state.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou D:

The topics was most underrated -- not the most depressing which many courses Texas still must overcome.  
Be interesting to see what happens with the new Texas Tech layout plus a horder of others that have come on board recently. The Longhorn state is clearly making some noise but it's still got some ways to go. I still take the Hoosier state.

Tom Doak:

Your NE bias is clearly showing -- where is the public side of the ledger for RI? Also, many of the courses you and others wrap your arms around are the wonderful quirky style courses of years gone past. Nothing wrong with them but they follow a particular design style. Where is the listing of top public courses? In RI you get the private side of the ledger but the public side is usually nonexistent.

In the Hooser state you have a solid array of public courses that often get little, if any attention. Start with Ron Kern's Purgatory -- Tim Liddy's The Trophy Club and a host of others I've mentioned. The Hoosier state has a good mix of all type of courses -- ont he private side you have Victoria National, Crooked Stick, CC of Indy and a few others I'm sure Hoosier natives can include. You say plenty of them are five's and six's on your scale -- I think you need to see what's been happening there recently.

If you want to say per square mile I'll give you RI -- but the issue is about total underrated courses. In that regard the Hoosier state claims the bill in my opinion.

One last time -- much of the land in Indiana is as flat as a pancake. Comparing the size of Indiana with Pennsy is not fair because Pennsy clearly has the better topography. When quality designs can go on flat land and still INSPIRE you to play then I believe that's saying something.

JakaB:

Just check out the quality land south of Cleveland and in the northeast section of the Buckeye State. Ditto the quality hilly terrain you find in the Cincy / Dayton area. Ohio has the better terrain although I do agree there is plenty of flat areas too.

[Joel_Stewart]

Clearly, the big time states of New York, California and Ohio, to name just three, would have to be left off for any consideration for the simple reasons they are not underrated.

Personally I would disagree with this assumption.  New York has the finest golf in the world and this coming from a person that lives in California.  You could make a case that Westchester and Long Island have 5 maybe 10 of the best courses in the world and no one would argue.  Throw in Oak Hill and Buffalo CC and most people (not including people on this site) wouldn't understand the scope of great courses in New York.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel S:

With all due respect -- if anyone REALLY believes New York is underrated in terms of golf they must have their head in the sand. The US Open is practically parked in NY State through the likes of Winged Foot, Shinnecock AND now Bethpage Black.

You also have this year's PGA at Oak Hill which previously served as host to other majors and the '95 Ryder Cup.

Plus you have the wealth of great private clubs on the Island and Westchester. PLUS there are a wide assortment of new clubs that (private and public) that have opened recently (i.e. Olde Kinderhook, Saratoga National, Branton Woods, etc, etc).

New York can make a powerful case that it's the best overall state for golf in the USA. Underrated? Hardly.

Joel, there may be people who don't understand the likes of where great golf (I don't doubt that) is, but my question was posed to the gang that resides on GCA -- not Joe Sixpack.

Hoosier golf succeeds because the terrain is utterly nondescript AND THERE IS STILL PLENTY OF WONDERFUL LAYOUTS on both sides of the ledger -- private and public.

[Joel_Stewart]

Plus you have the wealth of great private clubs on the Island and Westchester. PLUS there are a wide assortment of new clubs that (private and public) that have opened recently (i.e. Olde Kinderhook, Saratoga National, Branton Woods, etc, etc).

Matt:
I knew I would get you going  Don't forget the new and possibly best course in all of NY, Friars Head.

My point is the tremendous number of courses.  Take out the big names and it might still be #1 with courses like Piping Rock, The Creek, Century, Meadow Brook which are completely overshadowed.  The B list in NY might be A list in any other state.

[stevencollins]

I don't know if I could say Texas is underrated, if only because of its size and amount of golf courses.  And it has a swing on the PGA.  When I think of underrated I think of the states you almost never see on TV.  And in that case, I'm going to put out Colorado as a nominee.  Not only do you have some of the oldest and top-notch resort courses (Castle Pines, Cherry Creek, the Broadmoor) you also have well-respected public, private and military courses that are bar none in terms of condition, layout, and of course, views!  I'm thinking courses like The Air Force Academy Blue course, The Country Club of Colorado, the only Nicklaus public course in the world outside Breckenridge, Walking Stick, Patty Jewett, and many new courses in the mountains and western slope I admit I don't have the names for.  Castle Pines is the only tour stop and every generation there is a major played somewhere in Colorado, but besides that, there is little national recognition for the state.  Its a pity.  And with the altitude, you get your ego stroked on drives!

steve

[Doug Siebert]

I can't agree with Colorado, you have Cherry Hills there that has hosted several opens, and they play a PGA event at Castle Pines every year.  How about Nebraska?  Lots of nothing, then you have Sand Hills and Wild Horse out there.  Probably some other good ones I'm overlooking, but outside of the attention those courses get in GCA, average golfers don't think of Nebraska when they think of great golf.  Suggest Nebraska and they'd look at you like you like you'd look at me if I suggested a golf trip to Montana or North Dakota.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

You're absolutely right -- I forgot to mention a few other notable NY layouts (i.e. Friar's Head, The Bridge, etc, etc). You're also right on target -- the "B" list from the Empire State is likely better than the "A" list from 2/3's of the rest of the states!

Doug S:

You make a good case with Nebraska but minus the usual suspects -- Sand Hills, Wild Horse, Firethorn -- is the depth of the Cornhusker state a match for the Hoosier state? I don't think so.

The interesting aspect about Hoosier golf is that you would think with dead flat land the quality of a number of courses would be at best so-so. That isn't the case with a number of the layouts already mentioned. Design a first rate layout on woeful dead flat land is truly an art and Indiana has a few public layouts that are must sees (i.e. Purgatory, The Trophy Club, to name just two).

[Jason Hines]

Great thread Matt,

There are several underated states, Indiana being one of them.  If you go down the path of per capita and potential, I would say Nebraska as well.  You can cross the road in Mullen and Gothenburg and see limitless links courses.  You also have the wooded hills of the eastern part of the state, (Quarry Oaks, Iron Horse both in Ashland).  Woodland Hills east of Lincoln surrounded by corn fields.  Crawford and Scottsbluff have the buttes and trout streams way out west and McCook has heritage hills and Cross Creek (New and Long) wedged between the rattle snakes and yucca plants in the south west.  

If you include per capita and potential, I would agree with Doug on that Nebraska is one of them.

Jason

[Katie_B]

anybody ever consider Missouri or Kansas (yes, they just hosted an Open but still...) both states have some great courses.....

[John_Conley]

You have named two candidates.  They sure aren't "rated" highly, a prerequisite for ever being "underrated".

Aside from St. Louis CC, Old Warson, and Bellerive, what is there?  I've only played Dogwood and Forest Park in Missouri, so I really have no idea.

[Katie_B]

Prarie Dunes #26 ranked on Golf Digest's 100 Greatest To Play!  They just held an Open!! Then of course, Bellerive and The National.  Tiffany Greens, Pevely Farms, Shirkey, etc. are all great.  

[Katie_B]

oops... forgot Four Seasons.  That's great!!

[Matt_Ward]

Katie B:

You're listing of Kansas and Missouri are indeed worthy candidates. However, the Hoosier state has the least ideal land for overall golf development AND INSPITE of that still has some fascinating layouts. Kansas, particularly the area around Lawrence, has some type of hills and movement. Ditto Missouri -- especially when you near the Ozarks.

Indiana often gets lost in the sauce because three big neighbor brothers (Michigan, Illinois and Ohio) often grab the lion's share of attention. As I said previously, it's quite interesting how many superior layouts have been opened in the Hoosier state in the last few years on both the private and public side.

[Hunt]

Born in St. Louis, I am partial to Missouri with the St. Louis area historical value in St. Louis CC, Bellerive, Old Warson (site of the Ryder Cup), Algonquin, Glen Echo and Boone Valley-to name a few.

It still does not rank with the clear choice of the state of Michigan. Take a look at some of the great courses-new and old in the northern area alone. Bay Harbor is a solid new course. Boyne Highlands offers the Heather, Ross and Moor courses. The Belvedere in Charlevoix is one of my favorite courses in the US. Dozens more can be listed. Quanity and quality as a measure makes Michigan the call.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'd vote for Massachusetts. The Cape and islands, Boston, the Berkshires and few in between.

[Doug Siebert]

Missouri does have a few nice courses in the Lake Ozark/Osage Beach area, not just the RTJ course at Four Seasons, but the course at Tan-Tar-A and Weiskopf's Osage National are really nice, and Nicklaus' Porte Cima is awesome.  Though the holes that go by the "Family Party Cove" are distracting on a hot day, even if it is the other Party Cove where the women are topless.  

[Allan Long]

I'll second Kansas. In addition to  PD, you have Flint Hills, Shadow Glen, Hallbrook, Wolf Creek, KCCC, Alvamar. Throw in newcomers like Colbert Hills, Prairie Highlands, Sycamore Ridge and Falcon Ridge. You also have two pretty good courses way out West in Southwind and Buffalo Dunes.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom MacWood:

To mention the Bay State as being "underrated" is really hard to believe. The private side of golf in Massachusetts is quite solid and the public side of the ledger has really come into its own in the last 10-15 years. Among the better public courses are Crumpin-Fox, Shaker Hills, Pine Hills, Stow Acres, to name just a few -- that doesn't even mention the amount of good public courses in and around the Cape area.

For those who have mentioned Kansas I can't say too much against the choice, but repeat as I did previously that Indiana has some of the most boring terrain and STILL comes through with a solid mixture of quality golf on the private and public sectors.

[Tim Weiman]

Matt Ward:

I have spent very little time in Indiana and don't know the state very well at all. But, this spring I did attend a conference in Chicago and elected to drive from Cleveland. There were parts along I-80 that struck me as providing good land to build a golf course. Of course, driving along at 65 MPH isn't much to go on, but I saw enough to make me believe something interesting could be found.

Making the economics work in this farm area might not be so easy, however.