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JakaB

Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« on: December 24, 2004, 02:49:34 PM »
Given the historical significance of Sand Hills coupled with its excellent playing field....does it stand alone as the single Must Play course built since 1960.   Must Play is so over used that when I think of poster childs like TPC Sawgrass, Shadow Creek, Pacific Dunes or Muirfield Village I just yawn and get on with my life.....What is the purpose behind the Must Play mentality and do any other so called modern courses really have it...
« Last Edit: December 24, 2004, 02:49:51 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2004, 02:53:55 PM »
Well, John, it's your cliche, not mine, and it's never a language I'd use, as it's overused, like "hidden gem." Still, the basic concept has a significance that's easy to miss if you're simply interested in taking pot shots and prefer to ignore the deeper history of design.

I'd consider Caledonia Golf & Fish Club in that category of courses that are historically important, along with Shadow Creek, The Golf Club, TPC at Sawgrass-Stadium Course, Kapalua-Plantation, Pacific Dunes and The Sanctuary.

Basically, I think it means courses that are architecturally significant, not necessarily from a playing experience or "the best" but rather, from the standpoints of design evolution and innovation.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2004, 03:49:37 PM by Brad Klein »

tonyt

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2004, 03:23:17 PM »
Is Pac Dunes in your eyes really just a poster child and nothing else? Does being a poster child (rightly or wrongly) prevent it from being a must-play? Like the term "cliche", "poster child" is a term where something sometimes has to be pretty darn good or relevant or both to become one.

Not comparing the two courses for quality, but if Sand Hills was daily fee and within an hour of a major airport, would it be relegated then to mere poster child status? If Friars Head was a resort and Pac Dunes a stand alone private 18, might that change some of the conversation around?

JakaB

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2004, 03:30:48 PM »
What is Pacific Dunes going to show me that I couldn't find somewhere else in the world.....Taking cost and access out of the equation....why does it even exist when Monterey is out there for everyone to see...not to mention the real links of Europe..

pdrake

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2004, 03:36:23 PM »
I would agree on TPC Sawgrass..........what about a mountain course ala Castle Pines or a desert course ala Desert Forest??

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2004, 03:46:30 PM »
John:

how about sand dunes instead of houses? That's the basic difference between Pacific Dunes and Pebble Beach or the other Monterey courses.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2004, 03:47:55 PM »
And what about Kingsbarns?

Just 7 miles from St. Andrews, the first man-made links course that actually pulls it off, and this in the heart of the links world!

It is a magnificent accomplishment.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2004, 05:02:14 PM »
Disclosure, Phil:  what's your next book about?

John K:  If you can find everything from Pacific Dunes in Monterey, then why do the people from Pebble Beach keep going up there to play Bandon and Pacific?

Nothing is a "must play," but I don't know many people who made the trip to Bandon and came away disappointed.  I'd say the same for Barnbougle, but the exit polls are a bit premature there.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2004, 05:13:55 PM »
I really dont subscribe to the must play mentality, but being as that is the thread..
With all of this man made crap that has come down the pike over the past 30/40 years, that is what makes places like Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes such valued members of the top class of golf course.
As far as I am concerned all that moved dirt with a bottom less budget ala Sawgrass and Shadow Creek does nothing to inspire me to even get in my car to play, never mind fly across the world or cross country.
I just dont understand how places like the two mentioned courses or even Kingsbarns can be mentioned in the same breath as SH AND PD..in art terms it would be like comparing michelangelo with andy warhol...but that comparison is just to point out that to some both are valuable.
That is what makes golf so great, we can all have our versions of "must play"...mine will differ from yours..as will our tastes in music , movies and art...but when people start talking about Whistling Straits as "great"..I really have to wonder if they were the same people that thought the shit on the wall in the museum {in Cincinatti  I think}was art!!!

JakaB

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2004, 05:20:29 PM »
Michael,

After playing all the great true links couses overseas...what inspires you about Pacific Dunes....can't you get to Europe almost as easily..it seems like comparing a Lexus Coupe to an Austin Martin..

Brian_Gracely

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2004, 05:23:35 PM »
I find it sad for those people with so much access and $$ that they have lost the ability to appreciate the simple aspects of new golf courses.  Or the bigger picture of where some place like Bandon Dunes fits into the world of golf.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2004, 05:31:58 PM »
Brian, right on!

I know plenty of golfers where I live that consider Old Works in Annaconda, Montana to be a "must play" course and it isn't on anyone's Top 100 list.

It is all a matter of perspective and some people have theirs warpped from the reality most golfers face everyday.

JakaB

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2004, 05:36:52 PM »
Brian,

I think it was FatBaldyDummer that said it is an American thing to want to go all over and play everything new...Do you think everything new is a Must Play....don't make me bring Childs into this..

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2004, 05:47:01 PM »
Brian, I think we are on the same wavelentgh here for sure.
John, That is the beauty of the place though..it is not at home, that is what wowed me so much.
I said in a previous thread, when I walked off PD, I was stunned that someone has been able to create a world class links course outside of the homeland isles..Bnadon did not do that for me, neither did Kingsbarns which made me feel like I was in America playing an attempt to create the kind of course that Pd is...does that make sense.
Ther is certainly no disrespect to the USA intended here, so please do not think of me as a Paul Casey!!!

I go back to my earlier comments, I just do not get all this massive movement of earth to produce a golf course that will never look like it belongs in the enviroment it finds itself.
I suppose that makes me both a traditionalist and what has now become a minimalist..whatever that means.
What I really like are just good golf courses, that fit the eye..whoever builds them
« Last Edit: December 24, 2004, 05:48:56 PM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »

GeoffreyC

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2004, 05:47:32 PM »
don't make me bring Childs into this.. "

JakaBS

The next time you make a really stupid and insensitive statement questioning ones ethics, truthfullness, whether they can carry someone's jock strap or even if their life matters (I remember that bomb of yours too) perhaps you will get an itch in your ass and think of me.  Better yet when you go to the confessional at Christmas Mass or any Sunday for that matter perhaps you should get an itch in your ass too and ask forgiveness for your stupidity and insensitivity.

Merry Christmas


JakaB

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2004, 08:58:45 PM »
Geoff,

I went to Christmas mass and Jesus told me Bandon Resort is a Must Play....so I correct myself..

GeoffreyC

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2004, 10:28:49 PM »
JakaBS

Perhaps your direct connection to Jesus would be better used asking for peace and good health for all rather then which golf courses are "must see". :)

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2004, 11:17:00 PM »
Geoff,

I went to Christmas mass and Jesus told me Bandon Resort is a Must Play....so I correct myself..

I went to Christmas Mass, and the subject of golf never came up.

Damn!

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Phil_the_Author

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2004, 11:36:36 PM »
Tom,

You wrote, "Disclosure, Phil:  what's your next book about?"

Tom, you know that I have a book coming out about Kingsbarns as do many others on here. That has NOTHING to do with my being able to decide and believe that Kingsbarns is one of the must-play courses built since 1960.

How many times have you made remarks in various discussion on GCA pertaining to golf courses you designed?

You next wrote, "John K:  If you can find everything from Pacific Dunes in Monterey, then why do the people from Pebble Beach keep going up there to play Bandon and Pacific?
Nothing is a "must play," but I don't know many people who made the trip to Bandon and came away disappointed.  I'd say the same for Barnbougle, but the exit polls are a bit premature there."

Are we to believe these comments to be disingenuous and self-serving simply because you designed the courses? If we are to accept them at face value and with merit then why Don't you offer me the same courtesy that you afford yourself?

By the way, Kingsbarns IS a marvelous achievement and wonderful golf course as you well know. I truly believe it to be a wonderful accomplishment and a great course that should be given very strong consideration by anyone playing golf in that area of the world.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2004, 11:39:03 PM by Philip Young »

Mark Brown

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2004, 01:23:25 AM »
You may want to consider Harbour Town (a unique design that helped usher in the most influential architect of the past 40 years) and Pete Dye GC which took 15 years to build and thus displays the evolution of Dye's design style in 18 holes  of golf.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2004, 08:44:46 AM »
I'd add Whistling Straits to the list as well as the Quarry holes at Black Diamond.

I'd also add Lakota Canyon to the list as I think it breaks new ground on sites to be used that heretofore haven't been, although maybe Black Mesa does the same, but is not as playable.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

TEPaul

Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2004, 08:59:24 AM »
If significance of architecture since 1960 is what John B. is asking here I would pick Sand Hills, and Pacific Dunes and others such as Friar's Head, Rustic Canyon etc.

Why? Because in my opinion, those courses are not just an important turning point in the overall evolution of architecture in America but the direction in which they turned is incredibly interesting!

America is the great innovator and American courses and American architects, even if around the world, did a ton of architectural innovating in the last fifty or so years. They used far more innovation through modern technologies than any others, it would seem, to create massive and impressive creations out of blank canvases or natural canvases that weren't used as they were---certainly courses like Shadow Creek are the best examples of that.

But courses like Sand Hills, Friars, Pac Dunes, even Rustic, seem to demark the point where architecture decided to go in the opposite direction finally. The latter courses are obviously at the very end of a 40-50 year cycle in style and type and the latter courses are a bringing in of an entirely new style and type---but one that happens to be a reversion back---a renaissance, in fact, to much of what was long ago---to find interesting to really interesting natural sites and just going with them pretty much as they were as an architectural expression.  

It wasn't just that those latter courses were a turning point--the direction in which their type and style turned (back to a former time) is what's most interesting and consequently most significant, in my opinion.

The even more interesting thing to contemplate is that this new renaissance type and style really is a significant point in the evolution of it all---it is a new wave and it will hit a critical mass soon if it hasn't already and plenty of it will be produced. But eventually it too, in perhaps 40-50 years, will have run its course, will have run out it's cycle!

And then, where will the art and the evolution of architecture go next?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2004, 09:12:11 AM by TEPaul »

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2004, 12:34:16 PM »
Maybe I missed it, but I can't believe that there have not been several mentions of The Golf Club in New Albany, Ohio.  It's a great example of Pete Dye's early work and an example of how good he can be when he doesn't try to outdo himself.  

A choice of between Wade Hampton (I can hear the claims of bias already) and Shadow Creek would be a good choice for someone wanting to sample an excellent Fazio course.  Someone studying the current era does need to see his stuff even if many here aren't his biggest fans.  Ditto a Huntsville, Atlantic, Bridge, or Nantucket for Rees.    

I also cannot imagine someone interested in golf course architecture not needing to get to Bandon in short order.  My hunch is that will be THE place to go to get a taste of the current era of golf course architecture without needing endless contacts and traveling to the far corners of the Earth to reached the desired destination, then again, Bandon isn't near anywhere either.    

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2004, 01:03:13 PM »
I certainly agree with Adam that Dyes Golf Club, Ohio is
great. Others I would include WW Pine barrens,Kingsley,
Firethorn,Morgan Hill, and perhaps Southern Dunes.








mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Sand Hills the only Must Play course built since 1960...
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2004, 01:25:49 PM »
Pine Tree and NCR (1955) by Dick Wilson.Certainly something
by Robert Trent Jones, Crag Burn or Golden Horseshoe.
Angels Crossing in Michigan to see a shift in style, towards
classicism, by  Bruce Matthews III.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2004, 01:42:26 AM by mark chalfant »