Bandon vs. Pacific Dunes

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

The first six holes at Bandon are well crafted and well postioned so that you are constantly moving in all directions.

I like the first three holes at Pac but frankly they are not "world class." Although I think the double bunker combo --front and back at the par-5 3rd is well done. The course really starts for me at the long par-4 4th. That's where the course says, "welcome to Pacific Dunes."

At Bandon the first three are quite demanding and very different in term of what is needed. I mean you get a good par-4 to open things up -- a demanding par-3 with a green perched nicely and a thrilling par-5 that gives you the Pacific beckoning in the distance.

When you look at the second three-hole combination I would say that things really are quite close. The 4th and 5th at Bandon are two superb holes. Yes, you get the wind with you on one of them but each is really well done and very exacting in what's expected.

The 5th at Bandon has to rate as one of the most demanding two-shot holes I've ever played. Even if you cream a tee shot it take some courage to place your second all the way into the green knowing full well that the buffalo weed is lurking just off the left and right.

The 6th at Bandon for me is just an absolute bear of a hole. It reminds me of the 14th at The Ocean Course at Kiawah because the slightest pull or push can mean some real trouble.

I have a great deal of respect for the 5th and 6th at Pac Dunes. Each is well done and no doubt the short 6th is one of the best holes on the course.

Ed -- I don't do the match-play version you mentioned. I assess the different nature of the holes -- their positioning -- their routing and the varied demands they force upon the player. Let me remind you that three (3) of the top five (5) handicap holes come in the stretch I just mentioned. Let me also opine that the green contours / detailing that people rave about with Pac Dunes are not completely absent at Bandon Dunes.

Mike -- does make a fair point -- I would not have Bandon among my personal top ten modern layouts but it would not be far down the list by any stretch.

P.S. Ed -- the water's fine in Jersey -- you must be the one smoke'n the primo wacci tobacci!

[Jim Franklin]

Huck -
If I had 10 rounds there, I would go 5 and 5. I loved both and liked PD a little more, but both were a joy to play.

[ed_getka]

Matt,
  In the medical profession we call it better living through chemistry.    If the 6th BD is a bear, what do you call #11 at PD?

[Matthew Schulte]

I will be there this summer and will divide the rounds as follows: BT 3, PD 3, BD 2.  My personal breakdown would have probably been more like BT 4, PD 3, and BD 1, however I will be there with some first timers and can't imagine that they wouldn't want to play BD more than once.  

I am a huge fan of Bandon but would give the edge to PD.  The par 5s by my estimation are more consistently superior at Pacific.  Holes 9, 13, & 18 at Bandon are in my opinion the weak links.  As mentioned earlier the greens are far more interesting at Pacific.  The contours of the greens affect full iron shots to a greater extent at Pacific than they seem to at Bandon.  As has been stated before the green to tee distances at Bandon seem unnecessarily great.

Would Pacific be better if number 8 was the first hole?  Wouldn't 4 - 7 make for an arguably better finish?  I believe this was discussed before, and Tom said they didn't want the traffic congestion around the clubhouse slowing rounds down.

[Jay Cox]

I would do 6 PD and 4 BD, as many others have suggested.

I'd also be interested in seeing how others do out the match play.  If it's already been done elsewhere, I apologize; I couldn't find it in a brief search.  I actually see Pacific ahead by a healthy margin -- indeed, by a greater margin than the actual difference in quality between the courses.

1st - Pacific:  The hole makes me want to play golf, while I think the Bandon tee shot is the weakest on the course.

2nd - Pacific:  I love the central bunker complex, with a little headwind it's a wonderfully interesting hole.

3rd - Pacific: A more strategic hole.

4th - Pacific, although I think the two fourth holes are my two favorite holes in the place (and two of the best fourth holes in the world...)

5th - Bandon:  Very hard holes to compare.  I really like the Bandon tee shot, even though it probably could be much better if it were tweaked a bit.

6th - Pacific:  All world short par 4 v. pretty damn good par 3.  

7th - Pacific: Two very different par 4s.

8th - Pacific:  I'm not crazy about either of these holes, but the fairway bunkers at Bandon just look too weird.

9th - Call it a tie:  I like Pacific better if you play to the lower green and Bandon better if you play to the upper green.

10th - Bandon:  A really clever little hole IMO.  The Pacific hole is beatiful, but not quite as interesting.

11th - Pacific:  Again, two very hard holes to compare but I see Pacific's as clearly better.

12th - Bandon:  Great road hole style green complex.  Really interesting to putt too.

13th - Pacific:  Although I imagine that I think this is a lot closer than most people...

14th - Pacific:  I know I'm picking up too many par 3s...

15th - Bandon:  See above.  But the mere fact that I've seen three different four handicap or better players hit just awful shots b/c they were scared of a bunker, on such a short hole, makes it impossible for me to not pick it.

16th - Pacific:  These holes are actually surprisingly similar.  Bandon's is a little too...odd.  Maybe a case of should have moved a little more dirt to make it look like you moved less?

17th - Bandon:  I imagine this is a minority position.  I think the Pacific hole is good and interesting but I'd rather play half a dozen other redans just among the ones I've played.  The Bandon hole requires a good amount of thought IMO.

18th - Pacific:  A really great finishing hole.

Pacific wins, 7 & 5 and 7 up overall.  
My opinions are based on just one trip, although that trip was a week long and involved an average of just over 45 holes a day (my college graduation present).

Where do other people differ?

[ed_getka]

Matt and Jay,
   What is great about #6 BD? I just DON'T get it? Is #11 PD better in your opinion?

[peter_p]

Tom,
Sorry for the delay, I was out Christmas shopping.
I'd go with Pacific 7:3, but please understand Prestwick is my favorite Scotland course. For my game (185-190 carry), Bandon only requires placement of the tee shot on 4 and 16.
I'm already past that when I stop for coffee at Pacific. I'm constantly in the moment/game at Pacific, only occasionally at Bandon

[Jay Cox]

Matt and Jay,
   What is great about #6 BD? I just DON'T get it? Is #11 PD better in your opinion?

What makes the hole for me is figuring out how far to go out to the right (if at all) to avoid the disaster of going left.  I like the look of the left greenside bunker a lot.
In the wind, club selection is also very interesting, especially since the green is so deep.  

Still, I don't think it's a better hole than the average par 3 at the Bandon complex, and I certainly prefer #11 at PD (as well as both of the back nine par 3 at BD).

[ed_getka]

Jay,
  Thanks for the feedback. I feel better now. As for Matt he has gone off the deep end. If he can spin #6 into anything resembling a good par 3, I think the Democratic Party might want to talk to him. If you put #6 on any other golf course, it doesn't even register.

[ed_getka]

Jay,
   #1 agreed, although I don't think the tee shot on Bandon is that bad.
    #2 agreed
     #3 PD is more strategic, but I think it plays easier. PD has far and away the better green/surrounds.
     #4 I give the edge to BD, I just love the approach shot there.
    #14 BD  I think the approach shot is a more interesting short iron, than the tee shot at PD. PD does have a better green though.
    #15 PD I like the BD hole, but I think the green at PD gives it the win.
    #17 I like the BD approach shot demands.

What weight to you give to BD changing directions more and the effect of the wind, because of that?

[Jay Cox]

What weight to you give to BD changing directions more and the effect of the wind, because of that?

I think that's one of the reasons BD stacks up better than the hole-by-hole would suggest.  The other is the balance of the layout:  There are a few too many short approach shots at PD for my taste (the two baby par 3s, 1, 2 as long as it's not into the wind, 6, 8 or 9 downwind, 16, and whatever par 5s you don't get home in two on), while I find the rythm of holes in terms of length / shots demanded to be excellent.

I would also say that PD doesn't suffer from one-dimensionality at all -- it forces you to tackle the wind from many directions, it just doesn't feature the constant directional change of BD.

On the other hand, I like the "look" of Pacific Dunes far more.  BD looks manufactured.  I think that look is marginally less appealing given the spectacular setting -- but I would love the same look on a course in a blah woodland area, and I think it's a great contrast to PD. The real strike against it is that the manufactured look causes anything out of place to stick out like a sore thumb.  There are a few features at BD that just look weird to me, and that detracts from the overall flow of the round.

Overall, then, I still see Pacific as the clear winner -- but by maybe 4 or 5 up instead of 7 up.

Ed, I agree completely with your hole by hole comments, especially re: the 17th approach at BD.

[THuckaby2]

Tom,
Sorry for the delay, I was out Christmas shopping.
I'd go with Pacific 7:3, but please understand Prestwick is my favorite Scotland course. For my game (185-190 carry), Bandon only requires placement of the tee shot on 4 and 16.
I'm already past that when I stop for coffee at Pacific. I'm constantly in the moment/game at Pacific, only occasionally at Bandon

That makes good sense.
But aren't there shorter tees at BD which could accomplish this same effect?

I sure don't remember just banging away at tee shots on any hole there...

But you're right, overall tee shot placement is more crucial on PD.


Jim - glad to see SOMEONE has it 5 and 5.  I had it that way myself until swayed by the prevailing sentiment here and became the wuss I am today.  And basically that's my point when these discussions come up:  PD is a great course, but so is BD.  Overlooking it is silly.

TH

[Don_Mahaffey]

"The first six holes at Bandon are well crafted "

Matt,
While I enjoyed playing Bandon, it is my belief that PD is the far superior course when craftsmanship is the barometer. Just the fact that Kidd required the use of extensive drainage and catch basins on a site that is pure sand while Doak routed and designed in a way where the drainage worked without resorting to catch basins and extensive underground piping highlights the difference in craftsmanship between the two courses. BD is a very good golf course, but PD is on a different level, IMO of course.

[Matt_Ward]

Don:

Maybe people twinge when they hear the word -- craftmanship -- and want some other more "sensitive" or focused term applied. Fair enough. How bout if I simply said the first six holes at Bandon have an ample supply of unique character tied to their pacing, routing and overall shot values. Does that work better?

The first six holes at Bandon Dunes are a solid combination of different holes -- going in different directions -- and forcing the player to handle a myriad of situations.

I just believe the opening six is a better overall combination than its counterpart at Pac Dunes. That doesn't mean by a long shot that I consider the six holes at Pac Dunes to be lite-weight design stuff. Not at all.

Don -- you're talking about catch basins -- fair enough. I'm just talking about the first six holes and how they stack up against each other in a variety of ways. I didn't say Bandon was the better overall course -- I focused on just one particular aspect. Big difference -- IMHO.

[Andy Hughes]

I probably played a dozen rounds last year, total. And you guys are trying to decide how exactly you are going to divvy up 10 rounds between Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes? "Hmm, 5 or 6 rounds on this great course or that one?"
I need to get better problems in my life!

[THuckaby2]

I probably played a dozen rounds last year, total. And you guys are trying to decide how exactly you are going to divvy up 10 rounds between Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes? "Hmm, 5 or 6 rounds on this great course or that one?"
I need to get better problems in my life!

It's a hypothetical, Andy.
But yes, a VERY nice one to contemplate.
 

[Andy Hughes]

It's a hypothetical, Andy.
But yes, a VERY nice one to contemplate.

Oh yeah, its hypothetical, but I did notice everyone saying how they were divvying up their rounds there when they go next year--4 rounds here, 3 rounds there, only one round on BD (cause it sucks and all )
Hey, bottom line, you are all horrid people and I hate you passionately!
 

[THuckaby2]

Well given my physical situation right now I hate everyone, so I can understand the feeling.  

But good point.

 

[Andy Hughes]

Well given my physical situation right now I hate everyone, so I can understand the feeling.
But good point.

Yeah, I 'feel your pain'. Hope it heals quick.  On the downside, you don't get the joy of taking practice swings with a snow shovel as you clear the driveway
But at least I get the pleasure of seeing the pictures and hearing the comments of those who do play, and play good courses.
And I will continue to hate these terrible human beings  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tom, You are right about blind shot at pacific Dunes as well.

Bandon has some real mistakes in it. I think it is the 7th which has an exposed green set so the prevailing summer wind will blow the ball down the 50 foot hill. 13 fairway is set so you think 17 green is your target. 14 tee sits in a landing zone for 13 if you aim for 17 green. 16 in the summer is just a poor hole. 17 is the same in the summer wind. I would play Pacific 7 times to 3 times at Bandon on a trip there given the option. I am guessing it will be 6 Pacific, 2 Bandon, 2 trails in the near future.

[THuckaby2]

JB, we've sure batted around BD before, particularly #16 and you know I am right with you there, as to how unplayable it is downwind (summer wind).  As for the rest, that is food for thought... I just never noticed any of those as mistakes before, which to me is partly my inattentiveness, and partly because the positives outweigh the negatives for me.

So OK, you have it at 7-3 and that is certainly fine.  6-2-2 will have to wait to be determined until we see just how good BT is... I have a feeling that's gonna make things 4-4-2 for me but we shall see.  I'm doing a 2-2-2 next June so I will find out.  

In any case, my real quarrels are with those who put it 10-0 and they know who they are.  

TH

[peter_p]

Tom,
     I'm already on the shorter tees. I'll add BD14 to the list of placement tee shots, so that's three for BD.
     On a three day trip, I'll play each one once, but might double Pacific if the back is okay. If I'm on an abbreviated trip, Bandon Dunes draws the short straw.
     I always volunteer for rules duty if the PNGA or OGA is there.
     The back of Paul Daley's "Favourite Holes by Design" http://www.fullswinggolf.com.au/  lists favorite holes by each of the contributors. Each picks 5 3's, 5 4's and 5 5's.
Bandon holes listed are:
Pacific #13 by Gil Hanse (also picks Rustic Canyon #13)
Pacific #18 by David McKay Kidd
Bandon #5 by David McKay Kidd
Pacific #6 by Tom Doak
Pacific #10 by Steve Smyers

[THuckaby2]

Peter:

7:3 remains cool by me.  My quarrel remains with those who put it 10-0.

And I own Paul's book - it sits 2 feet to my left as I type this.  So the archies like a lot of holes at PD - what the hell do they know?  

In any case, my point has never been that PD is anything less than great.  It is, was, ever shall be so.

But so is Bandon.

TH

[Tony_Chapman]

I've never been to Bandon, but this thread has me wanting to go. I also looked at there website and couldn't believe how "reasonable" it seems. Could a guy play all the gawf he wanted in a week and stay there for under $1500?

[peter_p]

Absolutely, November throught April.