[David Wigler]

I am sure this has been posted before but I just found it.  Mike Strantz Web site finally allows me to share how wonderful this course is.  For anyone who has not yet seen the Shore course, browse here and you can get a feel for how good it is.

http://www.mikestrantzdesign.com/mpcchole1.html

[THuckaby2]

That is a very cool site and gives a great feel for a fantastic golf course.

And I am glad you got to play it, bummed I missed you while you were here.  

BUT... this brings up something that's been nagging at me for awhile:

IS the new Shore THAT much better than the Dunes, if it is at all?

I did the Ran match play thing and it came out even...
Thinking about truly great golf holes, more on the Dunes come to mind than on the Shore...

My take is that we are in a honeymoon period re the new Shore, and when that wears off, the courses will be seen as equals, with preference for one or the other based on taste.

Others think I am full of it and have queried whether the new Shore is even better than Cypress or any other course on the peninsula.  I won't name names but it's not Bob H.  I hope the maker of that query sees this.

In any case, what say you Dave, and others who have played both courses?

TH

[David Wigler]

Tom,

You are full of it  .  

I mean no offense to the Dunes course, which I enjoy but the Shore Course is magical.  It is truly a strategic exercise, immediately joins Prairie Dunes, Plum Hollow and CPC as having the best par threes on the planet (Anyone who does not think #7 from the back tees is the 2nd best par three in Monterey to 16 at CPC should just get a lobotomy), has some great Par fours, has spectacular -Almost mind numbingly good - vistas and views, is extremely fair, could be played with enjoyment every day, has tees so that an older guy from another continent could skunk a couple of young single digits (Including an awesome Birdie for Eagle on #6 when I stuffed it 15 feet for eagle myself) and generally may be the first course I ever walked off other than CPC and said I could play this every day for the rest of my life and not feel wanting - A perfect 10 on the walk in the park test.

[THuckaby2]

David:

Methinks you are in the honeymoon phase like so many others.

#14 Dunes is a superior golf hole to #7 Shore - more dramatic, better view, much better walk in that proverbial shoreline park.  I dare say #10 Dunes is a better golf hole also.  In fact, I will take the par threes on the Dunes as a set over those on the Shore, overall (although we're talking two in the world's top 10 in terms of sets, I think).  I also dare say Mr. Huntley agrees with me there.  I think.

Said older guy can and does skunk younger bucks all over the Dunes as well as the Shore also, btw - it too has very doable shorter tees.

Let's revisit this in a few months, when the Shore afterglow has waned, and perhaps when you have played the Dunes again.

Because the Dunes has everything the Shore does, and in some places, it has more.  I'd gladly play EITHER course forever.

My take is that they are BOTH great golf courses.  I actually agree with what you say about the Shore, for the most part (though you need a lobotomy if you fail to see the worth of #14 Dunes).  

I just think the Dunes is damn great, and it's being overlooked right now.  That's ok, people will eventually settle down.

TH

[George Pazin]

Wow, David, don't hold back so much, tell us how you really feel!

Which would you (either of you) say was blessed with the superior site? Are they both equally walkable (big thing to me)?

[Brian_Gracely]

Strantz lists #9 as a Par4, is this correct?  I thought it was a Par3 as it's only 245-ish from the back tees.....although it plays directly into the prevailing wind.  If a Par4, bravo to Mike for taking the short-Par4 to the extreme!  

[THuckaby2]

George:

The sites are adjacent to each other.  I can't say one is significantly better than the other, although the Dunes does get closer to the ocean.

In terms of walkability, that's a wash also.  Neither is on either extreme there (easy or difficult).  Both are pretty easy walks.

Here's the real key:  one was renovated by Rees Jones, one was a complete re-do by Strantz.  Now I know David is NOT one to fall for the most-favored-architect thing - he's always been very much independent of that - thus I trust his opinions here... more than some others, let's say.

 

And I think he does need to just reflect a bit.  They are both truly great golf courses.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Strantz lists #9 as a Par4, is this correct?  I thought it was a Par3 as it's only 245-ish from the back tees.....although it plays directly into the prevailing wind.  If a Par4, bravo to Mike for taking the short-Par4 to the extreme!  

Strantz' site has that wrong... 9 is most definitely a par 3.  It's 224 from the tips, 187 from the middle, 159 or 143 from the two up sets.

Great hole, btw.  Also not as good as #10 or #14 Dunes, though.  

TH

[Brian_Gracely]

David,

I have to agree with Huckory on this one.  I went through both courses and tried to compare Par3/4/5s, Routing, Setting, Greens, Playing Surfaces, Memorable Views, etc. and it kept coming out really close.  I keep going back and forth in my mind based on different aspects (both golf and non-golf) and I come to different conclusions with each approach.  That tells me that there isn't a clear-cut winner.

I can see where people can get enamoured by Shore because you spend so much time with views of the ocean...a great way to spend the middle 2-3hrs of the round.  You're much more exposed to the elements, the views, the sounds, etc.

If I had to choose only one to play for the rest of my life.....hmm....well, good thing I'll never have the $$ to have to worry about that problem

[Brian_Gracely]

Strantz' site has that wrong... 9 is most definitely a par 3.  It's 224 from the tips, 187 from the middle, 159 or 143 from the two up sets.

Great hole, btw.  Also not as good as #10 or #14 Dunes, though.  

TH

Agreed.   #10 and #14 on Dunes are better than any set on Shore....and I went 4, 3, 2, 2, 3 on the Par3s at Shore  

[THuckaby2]

BG:

Well said.  I too have tried to compare the courses in all different criteria, and it always does come out very close.  That's why when people go nuts praising the Shore and dismiss the Dunes, well... I attribute it to honeymoon effect.

Pretty darn cool that a member doesn't have to make the choice, huh?

Which brings up another question... where does MPCC now fall in the echelon of 36-hole clubs?  Has to be way up there, no?

I can say with a very straight face that it compares quite favorably with Winged Foot West/East, and both of those typically make Top 100 lists.  Maybe WF wins overall... but if so not by much.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Which brings up another question... where does MPCC now fall in the echelon of 36-hole clubs?  Has to be way up there, no?

I can say with a very straight face that it compares quite favorably with Winged Foot West/East, and both of those typically make Top 100 lists.  Maybe WF wins overall... but if so not by much.

TH

Not sure you could put either course at MPCC up there with Merion or WF, but I'd have to think that MPCC might be in the Top 10 of 36-hole facilities for the sum of the 36 holes.  

Agreed. One way or the other MPCC has got to be pretty near the top overall.

Interesting, the comparison to WF is really tough... we're talking apples and oranges... that is parkland/brutal tough/wild greens to oceanside/more fun than tough/subtle greens...

TH

[Craig Van Egmond]

Wow! The Shore course must have some pretty amazing par 3's, because the Dunes had some excellent par 3's, with 14 being spectacular!.  The members at MPCC are very lucky indeed.

[Brian_Gracely]

Getting back to Wigler's comment about #7 on Shore....how much better of a hole would it have been if the members had allowed Strantz to leave that HUGE left-side bunker?

It's probably a more difficult shot than #14 Dunes or even #16 at CPC, but both of those benefit from the "wow, I'm hitting it over the ocean" factor.  

[THuckaby2]

Wow! The Shore course must have some pretty amazing par 3's, because the Dunes had some excellent par 3's, with 14 being spectacular!.  The members at MPCC are very lucky indeed.

That's the point right on, Craig.  The set of par threes on the Dunes is spectacular and people tend to forget that in the excitement right now about the Shore.

To me the comparison is neck and neck... off the top of my head, I'd rank them like this:

1. #14 Dunes
2. #7 Shore
2t #10 Dunes
4t. #11 Shore
4t. #4 Dunes
6. #9 Shore
7. #14 Shore
8t. #3 Shore
8t. #7 Dunes

So neck and neck overall... and all except the last two I'd put in the category as truly world-class...
 

[THuckaby2]

Getting back to Wigler's comment about #7 on Shore....how much better of a hole would it have been if the members had allowed Strantz to leave that HUGE left-side bunker?

It's probably a more difficult shot than #14 Dunes or even #16 at CPC, but both of those benefit from the "wow, I'm hitting it over the ocean" factor.  

Well it's true that each does benefit from the wow from hitting it over the ocean, but what's wrong with that?

And no way is #7 Shore a tougher tee shot than #16 CPC.  That's not even close.  A miss short on #7 Shore leaves a chip.  A miss short, or pin-high left, or right at all on #16 CPC is re-teed.  The only way you get a penalty shot on #7 Shore is a horrid flub or a wild slice or pull.

Don't get me wrong - I think #7 Shore is a fantastic golf hole and one hell of a hard shot.  As you see I have it tied for 2nd in the rankings.

But let's not get too carried away here.

TH

[THuckaby2]

I'm sure they have tried, but is there ANY WAY to make #4 Dunes less soggy?  What a neat version of a Biarittz that holewould be if you could actually bounce the ball onto the green.

Drainage must be tough as it is in a low.

That being said, I have bounced a ball in there, in the summer. It's not that bad. But oh yes what it would be if it was firm year-round....

TH

[David Wigler]

Tom,

I think you need to immediately go play MPCC Shore again and take in #7.  It is simply one of the best five par 3's on the planet.  We are talking the whole enchilada here.  It is extremely demanding form the tips (I hit driving iron, Mike hit 3-wood, Bob hit driver).  Has a safe playable option short left (Just like #16 at CPC) where you can eliminate 5 and hope to get up and down for 3.  Has a far better green than #16 at CPC and way better than #14 at Dunes.  Has a great elevated vista.  Has numerous different ways to play it.  Has a faux Mackenzie false front - What else do you want?  #14 might win on beauty alone but #7 is a truly great hole and belongs on those stupid lists as the 7th hole when they do the best 18 by number in America!

George - To be honest, I forgot that Rees had anything to do with the Dunes and hope that Tom is right and my opinions have very little to do with the architect de jour.  I did not play the Dunes before Rees so I cannot comment on his work, just that the finished product is really impressive.  The Dunes is a very good golf course and worthy of its standing in the bottom 3rd of top 100 lists.  IMO the Shore should and will be in the top third of those same lists (Which means we are splitting hairs amongst two courses in the top 1% of all courses in the world.  Both courses are built for walking.  The Dunes has the most dramatic views, although the Shore has far more seaside holes.  The Dunes feels more like a Parkland course and the Shore more like a Links course.  The Shore also feels far more isolated.  If you get a chance, play them both.  They both are well worth the day but only a goofball like Huckaby could conclude that the Dunes is superior.  

[THuckaby2]

David:

It was about four months ago when I played the Shore last.  My memory is bad but not THAT bad.  

I think YOU need to go play the Dunes again.  How long has it been.  Come on, fess up....

#7 is a great hole, yes.  But there remains no real way to lose a golf ball other than an awful shot.  It is difficult, true.  But does difficulty alone carry the day?  And if so, how do you reconcile that one can so easily NOT get penalty strokes?

It also has a nice view, but then there's 16 CPC.  Please, that's not even close.  And 14 Dunes is better in this respect also.

As for the greens, you need to go putt #14 Dunes again.  If anything the ranking here goes 14 Dunes, 7 Shore, 16 CPC.

I will punt and let you live in your afterglow-dreamworld, however.  If a list of great golf holes is compiled, #16 CPC starts the list, #14 Dunes belongs on it for sure, and #7 Shore does, MAYBE.  Therein lies the difference.  All great, but a clear pecking order.

Top 5 on the planet?  Puh-leeze.  OK, I'd grant you top 100 - it is that good.  But Top 5?  No way.  It's barely Top 5 on the Monterey Peninsula.  Man this is like saying the horridly overrated #10 Winged Foot West belongs in such a ranking.  

And hold on, I never said the Dunes overall is a SUPERIOR course.  All I am saying is it's not a slam-dunk certainty that the Shore is.  And it's not.  The two courses are very close in overall quality, and it comes down to preferences as to which one one prefers.

Me? I truly can't decide.  It is very, very close.  Being sort of in the honeymoon still myself, I'd likely give a tiny nod to the Shore.  But I do feel that if we discuss this next year, it's gonna be equal, or maybe even the Dunes nudges ahead.

But one thing I KNOW is that saying one is clearly better than the other is like saying #7 Shore is clearly better than #14 Dunes - madness at best, foolishness at worst.

 

[David Wigler]

Tom, Tom, Tom,

Given that Michael had never seen the Dunes, we drove the course playing selected holes, after we completed Shore.  I therefore stood on the tee and took in both #14 and #10 (Although I will admit to not being very focused and being more of a tour guide than a golfer).  

I think that you were so distracted by the view on #14 that you missed the hole (An easy thing to do).  I will officially call this Simone syndrome!  Given that you suffer from it, I will forgive your comparison of #7 until you play it again (Not meant as a criticism of #14 which is 5th on the penninsula after #16 at CPC, #7 at Shore, #15 a CPC and #7 at Pebble Beach).

[THuckaby2]

David, David, David:

You must not have putted on #14 Dunes then, or rushed through it in your tour.  Thus I will forgive you and attribute your temporary insanity here to "too many rounds at too many great courses too close together" syndrome.  A nice affliction to have, but one that renders one's assessment skills less effective.

I do enjoy a nice view, yes.  But I've been lucky enough to play the Dunes enough such that the view no longer matters much.  The tee shot there scares me as much as it inspires me... The tee shot on 7 Shore makes me stand up and take notice, but engenders no fear.  The green on #14 Dunes has me shaking my head trying to figure it out...making it tough and mystifying...  the green on #7 Shore just asks me to judge a huge sweeping one-way slope.  Tough yes, mystifying no.

Again, they are both great golf holes.  I don't think either is in the top 5 on the planet, however.  But in any case #14 Dunes is closer, and #10 Dunes is right there trying to edge by #7 Shore.

Oh well.  You are not the first to trumpet #7 Shore.  I just do look forward to discussing this when the honeymoon ends.

TH

[Craig Van Egmond]

Gentlemen,

     Having played the Dunes and the old Shore course, I would be happy to play the new course in order to break the tie on which course has the best par 3's.    

[THuckaby2]

Craig:

Given I can't play the game for awhile, come on out and I shall loop for you.  I'll make sure you get the PROPER advice necessary to settle this.

 

[David Wigler]

Tom,

At this point, the only way to respond is with truly intelligent discourse, therefore: I am right, you are wrong!

Merry Christmas!

Dave

[THuckaby2]

Tom,

At this point, the only way to respond is with truly intelligent discourse, therefore: I am right, you are wrong!

Merry Christmas!

Dave

David:

That is most definitely intelligent.  But of course the height of genius here is this:  neener, neener, neener.  

Joyous Kwanzaa

TH
 

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