[Mark Brown]

Jim,

Great to have you aboard. Please try to keep me in line and stay out of trouble.

[Donnie Beck]

Welcome Jim

[TEPaul]

Because I'm sure he won't, I should tell you a little about young Jim Sullivan Jr and why he will be a wonderful addition to this mad-house that is euphemistically known as the "Discussion Group of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com".

Jim Jr is a fine young man with a fine heritage in golf and architecture. He was weaned on golf at that GOLFCLUBATLAS.com favorite--Huntingdon Valley C.C. in Philadelphia which has always been known around here as a producer of the finest competitive golfers in this town----and young Jim is certainly that. He won the Philadelphia Amateur Championship a few years back and was our Player of the Year.

From there he decided to try the Motel 6 professional circuit and one winter break when he was back in Philly he told me he was not that fond of the roll-up paper sheets in those places and if my memory serves me correctly at that point I slipped an Amateur Status Reinstatement application in his back pocket when he wasn't looking.

At one point Jim did some dedicated caddying at PVGC and so he probably knows all the ins and outs of that great course better than anyone on this website.

But the best part is Jim's father, Jim Sullivan Sr, is the one who was the successor to that great original architectural purist, Linc Roden (who was advocating this restoration/Ideal Maintenance Meld business at HVGC before most of us could hold a putter) and became the Green Chairman who took that course back to what it is architecturally and maintenance-wise before anyone else, including the USGA Green Section had even thought of it. So Jim Jr has a great heritage for most of the things we discuss and argue about.  

I also think it's good to have analysts on here who are great players and have that vantage point for analyzing architecture. I think some of the excellent players and tournament players we have on here now lend a wonderful alternative perspective and they do it very intelligently---the likes of Jamie Slonis, and Tripp Davis, Michael Walton-Palmer, Mike Clayton, sometimes Michael McDermott and some others I don't know that well.

Jim Sullivan Jr should be one of those.

[JESII]

Thanks for the welcome Donnie and Mark. Tom, thank you for the very kind words, especially about Huntingdon Valley and my father's contributions there. I could not agree more about the superb conditioning practice at HVCC.

I would like to note that our superintendent Scott Anderson is the most important cog in that wheel as he is the one who actually knows how to do what so few others seem capable of. I have noticed there are several super's contributing here and this is certainly not a criticism of you, but a compliment to Scott.

I look forward to participating in these discussions as golf architecture has been a passion of mine for many years and the views I have already seen on here provide a varied and valuable insight to different ideas on a subject we all feel strongly about.

Jim

[JakaB]

So Jim...or should we call you Just Deuce....what is your favorite course in the country for $30 or less...

[JESII]

John,

Since retiring from a dead career playing golf I have played very little (my twins just turned two and my wife is 5 months pregnant with our third), and prior to that the vast majority of my golf was competitive and the entry fees were significantly more than $30.

One place I would imagine is in that price range (at the right time of day) is Little Bennett GC. Just off of the corridor connecting Frederick, MD to D.C. the geographic location makes the thought of a $30 round unlikely but it is far enough off the beaten path that there's a chance.

Jim

[Brian_Gracely]

Duece,  

Where do you have access other than HV?

Are you a rater?

What is a Redan?

[Brian_Gracely]

Do any courses actually have strategic options if you're higher than a 5 handicap?

Have you taken the Shivas "Caddyshack" quiz?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=12942

Would Pebble Beach be worth a damn if it was in Iowa?

[JakaB]

One place I would imagine is in that price range (at the right time of day) is Little Bennett GC. Just off of the corridor connecting Frederick, MD to D.C. the geographic location makes the thought of a $30 round unlikely but it is far enough off the beaten path that there's a chance.

Jim

JD,

Thanks...that is the type of info we need on this site...being that Little Bennett is a Hurdzan without Fry design I don't think it's better than Wild Horse...but it does look like one great value for the area....are the greens really that fast or is it just advertising lingo...

btw...just ignore Gracely and Schmidty...they just can't get over the fact they never one(or won) anything and always take it out on the sticks...

[Andy Hughes]

Thanks...that is the type of info we need on this site...being that Little Bennett is a Hurdzan without Fry design I don't think it's better than Wild Horse...but it does look like one great value for the area....are the greens really that fast or is it just advertising lingo...

The greens can be fast.  The course has a number of fun holes, and several, well, not so good holes--perhaps a result of working with some hilly terain.

[JESII]

Brian

Sully would be much preferred to Duece, in fact if Duece sticks I might even consider attempting to figure out how to get back into that Profile Page and change it. Oh well.

1)I have no direct access to any course other than HV.

2)I am not a rater.

3)A redan (#3 at HV originally) is a frequently copied hole design for a one-shotter in which the green (raised above the surrounding terrain) slopes severely from front-right to back-left and which typically has a semi obstructed view of the green surrounds by an obstacle well short of the actual green.

Dave

Sounds fine, maybe one day hazing as opposed to a week but whatever. I have time to answer a couple of yours.

Most overrated course---Pebble Beach
Other than 6-7-8 PB was really disappointing.

Most overrated Architect---Jack Nicklaus
Not that he is rearded that on this site, but in the magazine rankings I have a real problem with the credit he receives. Muirfield Village (his Augusta, Pinehurst #2, Pine Valley or Merion) is no better than a private TPC course.

Florida---If I can't hedge at all, vast wasteland. Elevation and firm conditioning are my most important considerations for a sight, and FL has very little of either. There are however a few very good courses that managed to overcome.

Jim

[Brad Swanson]

One place I would imagine is in that price range (at the right time of day) is Little Bennett GC. Just off of the corridor connecting Frederick, MD to D.C. the geographic location makes the thought of a $30 round unlikely but it is far enough off the beaten path that there's a chance.

Jim

JD,

Thanks...that is the type of info we need on this site...being that Little Bennett is a Hurdzan without Fry design I don't think it's better than Wild Horse...but it does look like one great value for the area....are the greens really that fast or is it just advertising lingo...

btw...just ignore Gracely and Schmidty...they just can't get over the fact they never one(or won) anything and always take it out on the sticks...

Jaka,
   Since I have actually played both, I will go on record saying  Little Bennet is not up to Wild Horse's standard.  Its a good track for the $$ in an area that doesn't have much decent and affordable to choose from, though.

Cheers,
Brad

[TEPaul]

Jim Jr;

Don't bother answering those questions of those wahoos, it isn't necessary. What did I tell you about this place being like a saloon next to the OK Corral?

The best way to get off to a good start on this website is to embrace at least these concepts;

1. 98% of what Pat Mucci says on here is incorrect.
2. Rich Goodale is a lower school existentialist.
3. Tom MacWood lives in and views the world of golf architecture from an ivory tower somewhere in Ohio.
4. TEPaul resides in the sun-lit uplands of golf course architecture and is the Truth and the Light.

The rest is up to you.

[GeoffreyC]

Welcome Jim

I look forward to your comments.

I had the honor of playing Huntingdon Valley (all 27) with my good friend Linc Roden and your dad and it was a most memorable day.

Please give them both my regards and wishes for a Merry Christmas and a happy and healthy new year.

[JESII]

Unfortunately my typing is about as slow as you'll find and I overlapped a couple of the other replies while writing mine.

Brian,

I guess I did answer your Pebble question without knowing it was coming. I do believe every course and every hole has "strategic options" for all players, certainly not the same degree, but every shot should start with a decision.

I would probably do pretty well on the caddyshack exam, but no guarantees. You see I could have gone anywhere but I chose Temple.

Little Bennett--played three or four times and the greens were good, but not brekaway speed. I assume Andy is referring to the two similar par 3's in the 150 - 160 range that drop about 80 feet from tee to green. No arguments from me Andy.

[JESII]

TEP

I have cut and pasted your instructions and will abide by them at all times.

Geoffrey,

Thank you very much and I will extend your greetings.
tell me, what are your opinions of that C-9 at HV?

Jim

[Tony_Chapman]

Brian Gracely:

Thank you for resurrecting the Caddyshack trival challenge.  It is a fine trip down memory lane.

I continue to maintain, however, that the best acting performance in Caddyshack was done by Terry the stoner.  

I just watch a Law & Order: SVU re-run a couple of nights ago on NBC. This girl had been raped and everyone thought her step father did it, but it turned out to be his boss. Anyway, the stepfather was Danny Noonan.

[JakaB]

One place I would imagine is in that price range (at the right time of day) is Little Bennett GC. Just off of the corridor connecting Frederick, MD to D.C. the geographic location makes the thought of a $30 round unlikely but it is far enough off the beaten path that there's a chance.

Jim

JD,

Thanks...that is the type of info we need on this site...being that Little Bennett is a Hurdzan without Fry design I don't think it's better than Wild Horse...but it does look like one great value for the area....are the greens really that fast or is it just advertising lingo...

btw...just ignore Gracely and Schmidty...they just can't get over the fact they never one(or won) anything and always take it out on the sticks...

Jaka,
   Since I have actually played both, I will go on record saying  Little Bennet is not up to Wild Horse's standard.  Its a good track for the $$ in an area that doesn't have much decent and affordable to choose from, though.

Cheers,
Brad

Brad,

Once again proving that one don't need to play every course to know when one is better than the other....thanks

[Andy Hughes]

I just watch a Law & Order: SVU re-run a couple of nights ago on NBC. This girl had been raped and everyone thought her step father did it, but it turned out to be his boss. Anyway, the stepfather was Danny Noonan.

Tony, we were watching as well. My wife thought there was something quite wrong when all of a sudden I said "Noonan"!

[GeoffreyC]

Jim

The C-9 at HV is first a great tribute to Linc and his detective work that located the plans in the Gordon barn and his hard work that resulted in the most impressive restoration of nine holes that lay abandoned for 60 years or so  

I'm awfully glad that HV has 18 other great holes and I wouldn't as a member have to deal with the demands (at least from the back tees we played that day) the C nine places on ones abilities day in and day out. Flynn probably had a bit more leeway in building that nine given the other two nines. That said, I really enjoyed playing it and I think that the 1st, 2nd, 9th (if memory serves me correctly) and the par 3's are particularly strong and also enjoyable. HV is a teriffic facility and I agree with you about Scott and the way he maintains the course (having great green chairs like Linc and your dad helps).  HV is the posterchild for Tom Paul's "maintenance meld".

[Ted Kramer]

Jim:

I have but one question... in 14 parts....

First, name the movie that's from, and

Second, are width and angles and options just code language for "I want to be able to spray the ball anywhere and get away with it"?

Maybe you can help me straighten out my Longfellow . . .

-Ted

[TEPaul]

JES II

Don't answer that second question of Dave Schmidt's unless you want this welcome thread to you to go off on a five page tangent. Let me answer it for you, this way;

Dave Schmidt;

Width, angles and options are code language for width, angles and options! Although it ain't exctly advanced rocket science I realize it's not that easy to grasp sometimes!

[JESII]

Dave,

Back to School?

Width and angles are not (should not) be simply code words for those who want to spray the ball because there should be a penalty for their inaccuracy. I don't believe the penalty should be water or OB. I believe the defense for these wayward shots should be defended at the green in many instances.  

Geoffrey,

Your perception is correct about the C-9 and its demands. I would guess that, outside of outing play, the C-9 is played less than 10% as often as the other two nines. Perhaps because the other two are so strong and match so well people don't want to mix in that one, but it is interesting. As far as TEP's 'maintenence meld', I would be curious to hear a little more about it and specifically what steps some of the other well designed / poorly maintained courses in the Philadelphia area could take.

Jim

[Mike_Cirba]

Welcome, Jim!  

HVGC is truly one of my favorite places to play and at the risk of incurring the wrath of Mayday Mike Malone and Wayne Morrison, I think it's the best Flynn in the Philly region.

However, in the spirit of hazing, I have but one question.

Devereaux Emmett...straight or gay?  

[Michael Moore]

Jim -

If you are a member at a public course, a concept that some people on this board have terrible time with, is it correct to refer to that course as your "home course"?

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