10 courses that most typify the minimalist/renaissance design era thus far

[Dan Kelly]

Audrey Hepburn- Minimalistic

I think the other Ms. Hepburn is a better Minimalism candidate -- as summarized by Spencer Tracy in "Pat and Mike" (in which K. Hepburn played, as it happens, a golfer):

"Not much meat on her, but what's there is cherce."

Not a bad working definition of Minimalism?

[Sean_A]

We are gettin' nowhere so far.  Surely minimalism is more than a matter of how much earth is moved.  This alone won't win many prizes.

Ciao

Sean

[tonyt]

We are gettin' nowhere so far.  Surely minimalism is more than a matter of how much earth is moved.  This alone won't win many prizes.

Ciao

Sean

This path has been well worn here before. No need to start it up again. Perhaps use TEPaul's working definition on the previous page of this thread for the purpose of this thread's discussion.

[Dan Kelly]

Minimalism: an architectural philosophy dedicated to (1) moving no more earth than must be moved to create the best golf course possible on a given site, and (2) insofar as possible, making the moved earth indistinguishable from the unmoved earth.

How's that? Are we getting anywhere?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

With reference to Jamie's comments, I just posted a similar view under the courses that didnt truly deliver what could ahve been thread.

Also in reference to Jamie..if minimalist is associated with class/elegance/natural beauty/longevity to the eye of ones talents and work...... ... .then amen to Audrey Hepburn..the ultimate in all of the above...she is and always will be the Cypress Point of the movie industry.

In reference to the thread,
I support the usual boring candidates

sand hills, friars point, pacific dunes,from what I have seen and heard on this site Bandon Trails,cuscowilla.but to a lesser extent .

[Sean_A]

Thanks Dan, but there must be more.  Does minimalism strive to emulate classic architecture?  What are the main differences?  Again, this is a serious question.

Michael W.-P.

The royal family of Monaco have just hired a hit man!

Ciao

Sean

[Mark Brown]

Tom,

Have you played Wolf Run or Kokopell? Let's not streotype everyone. Both were built without moving much dirt and they both have a lot of risk-reward strategy.

Just because Smyers went thru a period of over-bunkering isn't a reason to discredit him forever. He is one of the very best when it comes to facilitating the ground game. Every shot has to be planned in terms of risk-reward strategy, and his knowledge of the game and design is as sound as anyones. Have you ever talked to him?

So many people on this site are so jaded and stuck on what they think is cool and righteous and what they think you want to hear I don't why I come back for more.

There's no way you can do a course with Nicklaus without compromising something in your design philosophy, and yet you took the job to gain eternal fame and historical significance because it's a great site. 15 years ago you wouldn't have taken it, and you wouldn't be building so many courses and stretching yourself thin. Don't forget the humble beginnings from which you have come. As soon as you do you lose track of what you set out to accomplish.

[Mark Brown]

As far as minimalism it's really a misnomer, because the true test of a good design is not how much dirt you move. It's if what you did looks natural, blends with its surroundings and serve the good purpose that it was intended to.

So let's throw-out the word minimalism because everyone is moving dirt, including Doak. Crenshaw & Coore, of the name architects, are moving the least amount of dirt right now.

Also, the last thing I said was I need help with this list because I haven't played every course that's deserving. This site is supposed to be for discussion primarily, not criticism. I'm sure a lot of you don't post topics because you don't want to take all the flak.

[Dan Kelly]

As far as minimalism it's really a misnomer, because the true test of a good design is not how much dirt you move. It's if what you did looks natural, blends with its surroundings and serve the good purpose that it was intended to.

So let's throw-out the word minimalism because everyone is moving dirt, including Doak. Crenshaw & Coore, of the name architects, are moving the least amount of dirt right now.

Who ever said that minimalism EQUALS good design?

I don't think it's a misnomer at all (if you go by the definition I propounded above).

[Tony_Chapman]

Maybe I am all wet, but I could care less if I play a "minimalist" course or a "renaissance design" or whatever. I like to grade a course on a few things:

1. Did I have fun?

2. Did the architect give me the chance to hit a bunch of different shots?

3. Was the golf course playing fast (could I bounce a few shots, if I wanted to)?

4. Would I want to play the course again, if presented the chance?

My guess is if you asked Tom Doak or Bill Coore or Ben Crenshaw or Steve Smyers or Jeff Brauer what he wanted to acheive in a design, I would hope they would say that they wanted the golfer to have a good time and the course to look as natural as the land permitted.

That said, here are some of the "fun" courses I have played (a pretty limited selection): Wild Horse, Caledonia, Tobacco Road, Sand Hills, Bent Tree, and Hawk Tree. In no particular order.

[Sean_A]

Tony

I hear where you are coming from!

Ciao

Sean

[Mark Brown]

To everyone:

Thank you for your contributions, although nobody has addressed the main thread. It was to nominate 10 courses that represent the classical designs built since 1990.

Answers to thoughts: I don't pretend to know everything like Tom, that's why I asked for help.

1. If you read  outstanding summary of the classical era architects posted a couple of days ago, you would see that a number of them like trees and the water at Cuscowilla was already there and only affects 3 holes.
2. I haven't played Rustic Canyon
3. Friar's Head - what does it illustrate that wasn't represented in the list of ten courses
4. Lets use naturalists rather than minimalists for this discussion.
5. A few rocks near one green -- big deal. I happen to know first hand that little dirt was moved, the budget was about $1.6 million and the bunkers beautifully complement the site.
6. Please define sycaphantical as it relates to the post.
7. Whether Kokopelli has carts or not has nothing to do with the merits of the course, and neither do the green fees. The ground game created there is outstanding.
8. Bandon Dunes doen't look natural to me.
9. Whether a course is in the desert or not doesn't matter, it could be on the moon.
10. Tony -- you're right on -- Tobacco Road is a riot - as in fun, as is Southern Dunes
11.Redanman-- I'm liking you more and more. You're right as proclaimed by Ron Whitten, Smyers has a dramatic flair for classic style bunkering and has done some beautiful work.

[Dan Kelly]

If Links Magazine had had this much attitude, I'd probably have subscribed!  

[Tim_Weiman]

Have to include Barnbougle, I would think.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Bulls Bay...?  I hear it's a wonderful course but it is my understanding that Strantz pretty much created a mountain in the Lowcountry to build the course...

[Mark Brown]

Dan, Thanks for that comment. It gave me a good laugh.

I tried to light some fires when I was at LINKS, but because of advertisers I had to tone them down a little. Although Wally Uhlein at Titleist pulled a few ads when I wrote about decompressing the golf ball a little, and Bob Cupp, who I think is quite talented built a geometric, computer generated course at Palmetto Hall I blasted him which created some sparks. They won't let me write anymore the editor doesn't want anyone to steal his thunder.

All the Best,
Mark

[Mark Brown]

Mike, you're right, but I think he camoflouged it pretty well and it does make five of the holes much more dramatic. It looks a bit like Shinnecock.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

3. Friar's Head - what does it illustrate that wasn't represented in the list of ten courses

Mark, This statement alone is reason to understand that the boat left you at the dock in regards to your post. Have you been to Friar's Head and experienced it to the point where you can justify leaving it off of your list?

[Mark Brown]

I said right from the start that I need help to complete the list of 10. I left off Friar's Head because I have not played it yet. Nobody is reading the post carefully. Please re-read the objective - to have a good overall representation.

[Tony_Chapman]

Mark - Should this be courses from throughout the world, or in the US?

[Mark Brown]

Tony,

Just the U.S.

[Tom_Doak]

Hey, Mark, I didn't take a shot at Steve Smyers.  I like Steve Smyers a lot.  I just said I thought you were the only person in the world who would have included those two courses in a list of the top 10 minimalist designs, and I'll stand by that; I don't honestly believe Steve Smyers would include both of them, either.

BTW, since you referred in your thread to the "minimalist/renaissance design era," I think I should get a fair say, don't you?

[Michael Moore]

Have you been to Friar's Head and experienced it to the point where you can justify leaving it off of your list?

There is nothing minimal about Friar's Head. Whatsoever. Behold the maximalist sixteenth green. I could go on . . . Barney did this exercise a few weeks ago with Cusco.

[Michael Moore]

What is minimal? The eighth hole at Alburg Golf Links, Alburg, VT. This is a very enjoyable golf course.

[Mark Brown]

Tom,

I still disagree (but everything is relative) and good spirited discussion is what this site is all about. One of my top 5 experiences in golf was the 3 or 4 days at Sand Hills before it opened with you, Ben, Bill, and Dick Youngscap.

You deserve everything job you've been given and I put you, C&C, and Smyers at the top of your profession. I thin Smyers is misunderstood by a lot of design buffs.

When you're able I would love to hear about how you and Jack have worked together at Sebonic. Your comments usually bring out the passion I have for design. I just wish that when I was 18 I had known there was such a major as landscape architecture. But it looks like I'm going to get a shot at it soon.

I hope no one on the site thinks I am egotistical as its really just somewhat unbridled passion. Relationships is what makes life worth living. I admire Crenshaw's humility and soft-spoken manner so much, particularly in light of all he has accomplished, and Bill Coore is very much the same. They're a class act, but everyone doesn't have that disposition.
What I admire in you is that I know you say and do exactly what you believe, whether people agree or disagree. Look forward to seeing you somewhere soon.