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herrstein

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mountain lake club
« on: January 25, 2003, 08:26:15 AM »
Just left Mountain Lake Club.
In the frigid temps of SC now, I remember fondly getting a mosquito bite while there; it was 76 degrees!
I have tried to post some pics for the group, but haven't been able yet- you can view a few at this site:


http://homepage.mac.com/jskate8613/.Pictures/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2003, 08:31:52 AM »
OK, figured it out.
Here's the website:
http://homepage.mac.com/jskate8613/PhotoAlbum1.htmlIt's just a picture repository, sorry about the lack of meaningful text. I am learning as I go.
That's Scott Wicker, lefty, approaching the 8th.

this is the approach to #3.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2003, 08:33:37 AM »
the redan 11th:

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2003, 08:35:29 AM »
the second with its "toilet seat" green:

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2003, 08:36:59 AM »
the diagonal tee shot at the long par 4 10th:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert Kimball

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2003, 09:10:26 AM »
Interesting pictures, I like the b&w.  Tell me more about this course, I tried to google it, but too many "mountain lakes" came up.  

Where is it located? Architect? Playability? Access?  

Also, where in SC do you live, I am from the upstate myself!!  8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2003, 10:00:05 AM »
herrstein:

Quite an amazing transition in "look" at Mountain Lake from just over a year ago. Brian Silva definitely "ReRaynored" the look of the golf course. I'm a bit stunned by some of the somewhat "geometric" and engineered look of the bunker restoration but I suppose that's the way the course was originally designed when Raynor started constructing there before WW1.

By the way, I think Mountain Lake, as a community may have been the first "planned" residential/golf community in the world, started in 1915 with a overall plan from Fredrick Law Olmstead complete with a wonderful "hotel" and a course by Raynor. In total I think the entire community is something like 2500 or even 3500 acres. A citrus operation was always part of the communitiy and the highly interesting "Bock Tower" sits in the middle of the community.

Charles Banks also probably had a hand in the creation of the course and certainly #9 is a Bank's creation (the original 9th green is presently the 8th).

Mountain Lake is a very interesting place to see for its "aura" as you sort of get the feeling the community is one where time has stood still--a very appealing "aura".

I looked carefully at Silva's restoration master plan a bit less than two years ago but again the bunker look is a bit different than I was expecting.

Early word is that some of the members are not that happy with the course at this moment but as to why I couldn't say.

I expect to be there during the Master's weekend so I'm looking forward to checking out the course in real detail. It does look interesting!

Does Brian almost "out-Raynor" Raynor himself in some of the basic "look" of the architecture? He might! I sort of had that feeling too when last at Fox Chapel in Pittsburgh, another very interesting Raynor restoration by Brian Silva.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Hendren

Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2003, 10:08:48 AM »
Doug,

You must be working Scott too hard if he's had to resort to using a trolley ;)

Regards,

Mike Hendren
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2003, 04:33:15 PM »
Had the pleasure of playing Mountain Lake 3-4 years ago.  It was a great delight.  At the time there was much discussion about cleaning up some of the work that had been done over the years.  

I had no idea at the time that they would have the courage to go to the look that they now have.  I am going to have to return for another look!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2003, 09:57:41 PM »
I thought the work done by Brian Silva was first rate. Mtn Lake is one of the hidden gems in golf, 45 minutes from Disney World and a fabulous facility with one of the greatest staffs in the world. (Betty Jean is everywhere, knew my name, remembered me from a year ago, and took care of my every whim.)
The work Brian did is directly out of the Raynor playbook. It is a little muted over what you might find at Yale or NGLA or St.Louis, where I presume Macdonald's influence makes those designs a bit bolder (read, steeper and deeper!) The course prior to Brian's work had been completely emasculated, and I think the membership at Mountain Lake, especially the women and the older men, have been slow to warm to having actual faces on the bunkers, and the other features of Raynor/Macdonald courses that make recovery around the greens- or recovery from fairway bunkers, for that matter, more of a problem than can be overcome with a putter.
They need some support down there- I told a few of the members that having a genuine Raynor is a little like having a Rembrandt; theirs needed retouching, but it needed retouching by an expert conversant with Raynor's style, and that it didn't need to be repainted on the old canvas, even if it was by Van Gogh. This is a pretty typical story, really, in the world of old golf courses. The members are sometimes the last ones to see what a jewel they really have. They keep waiting for the next PGA tour professional to come by and tell them that their course is great...
Again, I think Brian did a great job. I hope they leave it alone long enough that others can come by and see what he has done before they go to changing again. I thought the bunker faces were especially well done. Several of the green surfaces didn't really change that much, others were changed quite a bit. The routing was pretty much left as it was. There was a change long long ago to the 8th and 9th- the 9th is now the short, and I think they added that later, and made the 8th from a 4 to a 5. The short is in a corner of the property now and was struggling for enough sun when I was there.
The full complement of Raynor par three's is there, with an especially strong Redan and a great looking Eden with the lake in the long view recalling the Eden estuary from St. Andrews. The Biarritz is a unique combination of a right to left front section with a left to right back section, and the swale is more conducive to the run-through shot than Yale (or ours at Black Creek).
The 10th is a really tough 4 with a great "bite-off" tee shot at the distant Bok Tower, really a good hole. The 8th is a fine 5 with a great looking green complex, with the layup in a left to right sloping piece of ground that really adds complexity to where to put yourself for your third.
The punch bowl 15th is really cool and fun to play.
All in all I highly recommend a visit.
If I have time I'll write up a little more later...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2003, 10:12:04 PM »
The pictures call to mind CC of Charleston in routing on generally flat terrain.  How does that Redan receive the classic shot, and is there a bunker hidden off the back right?  Thanks for sharing them Doug.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2003, 10:28:23 PM »
Very interesting pictures. Did in fact Raynor originally want his bunkers to have such a geometric clean line? I'm not so sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2003, 04:14:23 AM »
I couldn't agree more. There's always been a sort of mysteriousness to Raynor to me with his use of some squarish or "engineered" or even geometric "lines" and shapes in some of his architecture. Certainly at NGLA it's sort of fascinating to me how they managed to do that to some degree and still have the course look basically so cool.

I'm not a Raynor expert but I've played a good number of his courses over the years--grew up at Piping Rock actually and I've NEVER seen bunkering that looks like that, particularly bunkering that isn't supporting a green or some such thing that's squarish overall as many of those stand-alone bunkers in the new Mountain Lake restoration are.

I'd sure like to see some old original photos of ANY Raynor architecture that has that look (other than greenside if you could even say that). I'm not talking about the faces here, I'm talking about the overall shapes of the bunkers--they're all squared off everywhere.

It seems to me looking at those photos that Brian Silva for some reason really did decide to go all the way back to the old "geometric" bunker style that some golf courses had coming out of the turn of the century.

The supreme irony here seems to be that that "geometric" look was the very thing that repulsed C.B. MacDonald about early American golf courses in the first place and obviously had a lot to do with inspiring him to build NGLA as a reaction to it!

The severe "geometrics" in the architecture of those very early American courses was the thing that induced MacDonald to say; "The very soul of golf shrieks!"

He may have been specifically talking about things like those horrifying rows of "chocolate drops" and such but the absolutely square, geometrically shaped bunker could not have been far behind in his mind.

Frankly, I'd like to see this issue resolved at least in an historic context. Did Raynor EVER actually build square bunkers like that anywhere? My understanding has always been that that early era (including Macdonald and Raynor) was trying to get away from "geometrics" in architecture, not utilize it!

In my book, this could be some tricky business to explain or it might have a tendency to give Seth Raynor a bad name!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2003, 05:19:11 PM »
Certainly, the clean geometry of Silva's bunkers is striking. I have seen old photos that show much the same thing (check the Chicago GC history book), but I have also seen a lot of photos from those days that make the bunkers look a lot more unfinished.
But the main thing about the old designs is the location of the bunkers and the strategy they require. For example, the bunkers on the 10th (shown above) lead the eye to the sweep of the dogleg right, and the hole has a great strategy as a result: the more you cut off, and flirt with the bunkers, the shorter the second (and on a 460 yard slight uphill par 4, that's a big deal!)
The best (and most fun) shot I've hit all year was my drive on the 10th, a fade off the Bok Tower and around the series of fairway bunkers, that left me a 6 iron approach, while my hapless opponent the Rev. King Oehmig was facing a daunting blow from Ruby, his 3 wood of the week, after his more timid line with his drive (he did roll that shot onto the surface, by the way).
The work at Mtn Lake has made the course eminently more pleasing than it was, and it's certainly readily identifiable as Raynor. It wasn't so before.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2003, 03:23:08 AM »
The handful of members who undertook the re-Raynorization of Mountain Lake ended up with the right man in Brian Silva, knew how to utilize the talents of their superintendent, Steve Ciardullo, and have now produced a stunning outcome that has thrilled visitors, Too bad a few of the members are a little thrown off by it, and they're complaining about some minor annoyances like bunkers that are too steep and require too much walking around and raking. Gee, didn't I read somewhere that bunkers are supposed to be hazards?

The only problem I see is that the committee leading the restoration didn't suffciently sell the plan to the members, or impress upon them what a brilliant layout and set of holes they have at this maginficiant setting. Let's hope in time they "get it." Meanwhile, an out-of-town membership is now available at very favorable rates. It would really help to infuse this distinguished residential population with more keen students of classical architecture.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2003, 03:27:23 AM »
TEPaul,

small point, but it often needs clarification, Frederick Law Olmsted didn't do Mountain Lake; the firm he left behind upon his death in 1903 in the hands of his son did the layout work there.

FLO was basically in a vegetative state from 1898 until his death. He never saw Pinehurst - that plan was also done by his firm. Most of the great golf course communities attributed to Olmsted were in fact done by his son's firm, not FLO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2003, 04:17:10 AM »
Brad:

Thanks for the clarification on FLO. I have his enormous biography here but I haven't had the will power to launch into it yet.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2003, 05:14:52 AM »
A couple of points about the bunkers of Mountain Lake after the just done Silva restoration.

There's no question in my mind that the placement of the bunkering is excellent, as herrstein mentioned. I knew the course well enough from before the restoration to see that on this photo list on this thread and I'll see the course again in April.

Bunker placement is one thing, a very important factor in architecture but I think the unusually "clean geometric" look (as herrstein said) is really worth some discussing on here and in detail. Not only really worth discussing but a must to discuss if we're going to continue to adhere to some of the principles in architecture on here that we've always said we would and that we discuss all the time with other courses and other architecture.

A lot of us are extremely interested in two basic things in architecture and certainly early architecture in an evolutionary sense. The creation of good and interesting strategy (certainly part of good bunker placement) but also the attempt at creating a "natural look" from the architect for the simple reason that it seems far the best for an architect to "hide his hand" in his architecture to some extent for many interesting and fundamental reasons to do with the whole playing of the game--the whole experience of the game and its architecture.

So the placement of those Mountain Lake bunkers aside, don't anyone try to tell anyone else on here that the "look" of those ML bunkers is any architect (either Raynor or Silva) trying to hide their architectural hand!! I mean it's not even remotely close. Those are some of the most "geometric" and "engineered" looking bunkers anyone could imagine!

So what's going on here?

If you ask me, and I've been saying this for years now about Raynor (and maybe even NGLA) that his (or their style) was remarkably engineered looking simply because they didn't really seem to care about the "natural look" of it--they obviously only cared about the "strategic" aspect of it which both were clearly very good at!

But what about the others of that era who were beginning to produce architecture that was both strategically excellent and also excellent in the manner in which they architecturally created their "golf features" (certainly including bunkering) to give it all a "look" that nature had so much more of a hand in it than the architect did?

Were not the latter, such as MacKenzie, Colt, Alison, Fowler, Simpson et al, Crump, Wilson, Tillinghast beginning to take golf architecture to another level in the overall "look" of man-made architecture--to a far more "natural" look?

There can be absolutely no question of it in my mind!

And as obvious as that fact is in my mind, I'm not saying I don't like the architectural work or style of Raynor, just that it's vastly different from some of his contemporaries and I think that fact alone says so many interesting things about the "EVOLUTION of the golf architecture" of that interesting period or era!

I'm certain herrstein is probably right that evidence can be found of the same highly "geometric" look of Raynor's bunkering at a course like Chicago C.C. (in early photos) and I would very much like to see that evidence.

But I think all of us should recognize the vast differences in "look" in much of the architecture in the teens and 1920s.

Here's a good example why, in my opinion! If that highly "geometric" look in bunkering is REALLY something that Raynor carried through his career can you imagine what that would look like if he'd actually done Cypress Point?

Can you imagine what that course in that natural setting would look like with bunkering everywhere that was absolutely squared and "cleanly geometric" as is the bunkering at Mountain Lake (where it's probably far more interesting on a relatively low profile Florida more "flat line" site).

I think that look would be God awful at Cypress--it wouldn't fit at all into that natural landscape.

So if that "highly engineered bunker look" (and architecural look) really is something Raynor carried through his career, am I glad it was MacKenzie who ultimately built Cypress Point, for instance? There's no question of it! Cypress is definitely NOT a site that could ever call for "engineered" or "geometric" architecture like that!

This is definitely worth discussing honestly because the differences and distinctions are so stark. I just happen to think that Raynor was one who fits into the "EVOLUTION" of architecture in a very interesting place!

To truly understand his style juxtaposed to some of his contemporaries is one of the most fascinating things of all about the evolution of American architecture, in my opinion!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2003, 06:11:14 AM »
I agree with Tom Paul, I don't think Raynor ever intended for his bunkers to have such a clean linear look.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2003, 07:29:37 AM »
Tom MacW;

I really don't know if Raynor did or didn't intend for his architecture to have such a clean linear geometric look to it (particularly the stand-alone bunkering) but I certainly do want to find out--or certainly the extent to which he was content to go with that look because it certainly was a good deal more that way than so many of his contemporaries if it was anything like the present restored Mountain Lake bunkering.

But the one thing I really don't want to see is for any competent architectural analyst to deny that real "geometrics" did exist in his architecture if it was, in fact, anything remotely like the overall "lines" of those Mountain Lake bunkers.

And the reason I don't want to see that happen with competent architectural analysts is because if for some they start to claim that somehow, some way those linear geometric lines look something like the "lines" of nature or even any natural sites (other than completely "flat lined" low profile, no topography sites), that's when I'm going to have to part company with the opinions of those competent architectural analysts!

But again, I'm not really saying I'm not interested, to a degree, in that Raynor style (if it did look like Mountain Lake now). I'm extremely interested in it! But I'm primarily interested in it because of what I believe it says about the evolution of golf architecture in America. And I think that's the fascinating part.

So many analysts seem to take on a "one size fits all" mentality when it comes to analyzing architecture and its "styles" and "principles" and Raynor clearly shows a "one size fits all" consistency in those contexts in the era he worked in was DEFINITELY NOT HAPPENING!

I've just always assumed, and I think correctly so, that "geometrics", in almost any way, in early architecture was the one thing that repulsed Macdonald the most! And if it did then we all need to look carefully at why he happened to continue to utilize it, even to a very small degree. I happen to think there are some very logical reasons that he did--and those reasons I think are most interesting in the evolution of early American architecture!

I believe the reason he did is because Macdonald was extremely early too and he just happened to find some "geometrics" in some of the early architecture of some of what he studied in Europe. But why was it there in Europe so early? Because it was simply the result of the rudimentary architectural practices of many of the early European architects.

Clearly though, a group of them were trying hard to get away from even a vestige of that "geometric" or "unnatural" look. The ones I mentioned who seemed to be trying hard to get away from that unnatural "geometric" look--Colt, Alison, Fowler, Simpson, Crump, Wilson, Thomas, Hunter, Tillinghast, Flynn and particularly one such as Max Behr.

You notice I didn't mention Donald Ross because some of his very early architecture (even my own course) very much exhibited real vestiges of "geometrics" in his architectural designs. But clearly he departed from that almost completely going throught the 1920s.

If we notice, those were the ones that were not really collaborating much with the likes of MacDonald and Raynor and I think the reason is they were trying so much harder to really imbue their architecture with the "look of nature" anyway they could.

I've noticed, for instance, a sort of swipe from Macdonald about this time at some of the writing of Behr on this very subject. It clearly appears to me that Macdonald was basically saying that Behr was 'thinking too damn much!' And I've also run across a most interesting remark from Hugh Wilson about the thoughts and writing of Behr!

This is all fascinating to me since the evolution of the ebbs and flows and currents and vastly varied styles in American archtiecture continued well into the 20th century and even towards the very end of it.

How can anyone deny, for instance, that certainly Pete Dye became fascinated by some of the rudimentariness of early European architecture the same way Macdonald might have? The "lines" of much of Pete's architecture is definitely a return to that "look" to a large degree.

See how interesting all this makes the ebb and flow of the styles and even the prinicples of architecture in America? But we can't appreciate all of it unless we begin to make the necessary distinctions and recoginize the differences.

However, it seems quite clear that the best of the architects of the 20th century in America from Macdonald to Raynor to Ross to MacKenzie to Dye to Doak, no matter what their "styles" and "looks" were, were quite consistent in supplying quality "strategy" in their designs despite the huge variations in the "look" of their styles!

I think that's what Raynor was primarily interested in and not necessarily the "look of nature in architecture" that other of his contemporaries were becoming so transfixed by.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2003, 07:43:31 AM »
these bunkers do have the upholstered look that so many objected to w/r/t Merion's bunkers.

the redan bunker looks shallower than i remember.

these pictures look much more interesting than anything i can remember about ML, and I've played there maybe 5-6 times.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2003, 08:11:46 AM »
SPDB:

ONLY in an effort to really make some interesting and detailed distinctions in the "look" of American architecture I would have to say that the look of the recently restored Mountain Lake bunkers don't look remotely like the puffy and upholstered look of some of the recently restored Merion bunkers.

Not unless something like Bauhaus furniture looked something like comfortable English furniture and I doubt even a casual observer would ever say anything like that.

ML's bunkers are extremely geometric, square and linear in appearance in every way and Merion's are far more rounded and puffy looking in every way.

To me the two looks are vastly different--almost as different as they could get.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2003, 08:18:38 AM »
Tom -
I'm not, of course, talking about the shape of the bunkers, but rather the surrounds. My memory of ML, in terms of its architecture, is a little foggy because I played there before such things interested me. However, if you look at the short bunker on the redan you can get an idea of what i'm talking about. there is a distinct puffiness to that bunker.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2003, 08:34:02 AM »
SPDB:

I guess I'd have to say that this might be an example of two people looking at the same tree and seeing two different things. The shapes of the ML bunkers (including that small square one on the redan) are about as severe, linear and almost sharp in every single way--overall shape, sand to grass lines, faces, top profile, everything, as I could possibly imagine.

The only thing I could see making them more so (the opposite of puffy and upholstered) would be for the grass on the faces and the surrounds to be cut shorter.

The Merion bunkers have a puffy look to them both vertical and horizontal to the eye (and that's construction to a large degree although some of it is the effect of the grasses growing out now) as well as some curving rounded lines (into very small little rounded capes and bays) where the grass hits the sand.

I can't see ML's bunkering looking even remotely like that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: mountain lake club
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2003, 09:53:22 AM »
herrstien,
Thanks for a great post on Mt. Lake. Last week on the way to the PGA show I stopped by to check out the course with one of the top club pros from the MET section. The course is a true gem. We were both blown away by Silva's work and were lucky enough to be able to share our thoughts with some of the golf committee  members. As stated they are getting a lot of heat over how the course is playing from some of the older membership. The bunker work is stunning and in some cases PGA West severe. Is that what Raynor (Banks) built here many years ago?
The dilemma that ML faces is that it may be too difficult for the membership and too short in places for the better player. The punch bowl 15th is not much of a factor when you're hitting a lob wedge. Perhaps there is room there for a back tee across the road. Raynors work here is very well balanced, note how he designed up, down, fade, draw, short,  and long holes here. What did the original Raynor hole look like? Did he actually build the island tee on 8? Excellent work by Silva, a must play. Hope I can figure out how to post pictures.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »