Instead of another list of favourites, who ELSE should we know about?

[Mark Brown]

Mike,

Smyers is still working but just hasn't had the exposure or the break-out site he needs to put him near the top where he belongs. As you know Wolf Run is fantastic. After being praised by Whitten for his flair for dramatic bunkering he got knocked heavily at Old Memorial for the same thing. But it's a good course.

He was in the final running for the Trails at Bandon Dunes. He did a good course in Maryland, Four Streams and in NJ, Blue Heron Pines, and Lochenheath in Michigan (has anyone played this -- how did you like it?

Kokopelli in S.Illinois was a very good low budget links and he did a course in Indiana, Heartland Crossings(?) Anybody play this?

He also did Chart Hills in England which has been rated as the best inland course in the British Isles, and is better than Loch Lomond, which is over-rated because of the setting. He also totally remodeled Isleworth did Grand Pines in Orlando a throwback with a hint of Raynor.

Currently he is scheduled to do one in Dubai, Kiawah and Lakeland, FL.

He loves the ground game as witnessed at Southern Dunes near Orlando and understands design and the game as well as anyone. He's also one of the nicest and well-spoken guys in golf.

He just needs some publicity and a break-out site.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom Doak says:

Also, I don't feel so guilty about our current status because Bill and Ben and I were pretty instrumental in developing [or at least selling] minimalism as a style.  It would be different if the other guys you name were doing something really different, but if they were, then we wouldn't be holding them back.

I have to ask, if we are speaking of low budget and minimalist approaches to golf course design, what sort of things could possibly be different to offer as an alternative.  I mean the whole minimalist concept to me is routing efficiently, using the land as it exists, using the most efficient natural drainage, using the resources that exist most effectively, and earthworking it minimally.  With those constraints, just how many alternatives could there be?  

Once any of the named archies and designers start doing things "differently" or using land and resources in some alternative manner, then I believe they will be escaping the foundational principles of golf, and design, and would be called quirky and high risk.  Who can afford to take on that sort of label?  Certainly not a starving designer.

I don't think we are going to see any new minimalists, presenting anything new under the sun in GCA any time soon.  It has all pretty much been done.  Craftsmanship is the only point to separate them, IMHO.

[Dan Kelly]

I don't think we are going to see any new minimalists, presenting anything new under the sun in GCA any time soon.  It has all pretty much been done.

What did the current generation of minimalists present that was new under the sun?

[Brian Phillips]

I feel that the European designers have always been minimalists and have never really ever shifted earth like our American counteparts.

The Hawtree work at Lahinch is just fantastic, but he just doesn't blow his trumpet about it.  Martin told me he did 66 visits for the job over two years.  

I bet he is doing great work at Royal Melbourne.  

It makes me chuckle a little when Tom talks about minimalism....it never left the British Isles...but Tom definately sells it better than over here.

There may have been a lot of bad design work done over the last forty years by some architects in Britain but I can assure you it was mainly minimalist design on very low budgets.

Brian

[SPDB]

Mike,

As you know Wolf Run is fantastic. After being praised by Whitten for his flair for dramatic bunkering he got knocked heavily at Old Memorial for the same thing. But it's a good course.

I don't know how you can say the bunkering at Old Memorial is the "same thing" as at Wolf Run. There is probably more acreage of sand at OM than there is grass at WR. That being said, I liked Old Memorial. I do believe Smyers overbunkers.

[ian]

Two I forgot but were mentioned often are Neil and Kelly. I have asked Kelly to post an update or photos but I don't think he's comfortable with ever being accused of self promotion. I wish he would post more of his work.

Sorry about the delay in posting back, but I was away until now.

Tom Doak,

I think you know already how much I enjoyed the open discussions at Archapalozza. Your right many of the people who's work I admire attended that get together.

Regarding restoration: I agree with you comment that restoration is a completely different choice for architects, it does not bring new work, and frankly I would assume Pritchard and Forse don't really care.

When's the next get together Tom?  

RJ Daley,

There is definately less work out there right now, but there was a hell of a run in the last five plus years. What did we miss, because they are all fairly new. Lot's of times the greatest opportunity is pure luck.

Paul,

We will arrange our games over a few drinks in Monterey  
Patriot looks really good by the way.

John F,

Jeff's work on the Quarry looked outstanding, and this is a course I would love to see. This is a great example where a thourough profile would be a lot of fun to read through, or if we could convice Jeff to post some photos and take us through the course in detail.

Mark,

Thank-you your list is awesome, and it helped give a terrific rundown, but more importantly the perspective of how much local architects are ignored for bigger named designers.
Faldo has a presence everywhere and loks to be someone about to make a big splash. He is lucky to have the name value to promote himself right out of the gate. I've seen Red Tail but would enjoy a thread that goes through a few of his courses to help give me an idea of his work. I wonder what could have happened too!

Mark B. ,

"He just needs some publicity and a break-out site."
Agreed, I like Steve's work and I found his lecture on technology at Arch 1 was really facinating on how he broke down our problems with designing today. In some ways it was a shame he didn't get the chance at bandon, but who could argue with the choice.

Brian,

Martin has been hired to work at Toronto Golf too. They made a good choice, and I look forward to seeing his work.
What is his own work like?

SPBD,

"I do believe Smyers overbunkers"

We love when MacDonald, Thompson and others use the technique, and yet we don't when a modern does the same thing. While (admittedly) not having not seen the project, I always struggle with that statement.

I'm frugal when it comes to bunkering my own work, but I always enjoy architects who are more aggressive or bold in their bunkering scheme's. Southern Dunes is quite fun in many places.

Is it the look or style of the work, or is it the locations of bunkers well of the standard landing areas?

[Brian Phillips]

Brian,

Martin has been hired to work at Toronto Golf too. They made a good choice, and I look forward to seeing his work.
What is his own work like?

Ian,

I think the best way to describe Martin is subtle, quietly confident and an expert on MacKenzie and Colt.  I had never played Lahinch before he 'restored' it or 'renovated' it depending on how you look at it but the green complexes were the best I played on the trip in a way that I feel only an architect could recognise the brilliance or an achitectural nut like TEPaul would notice.

Martin gave us (the 26 architects from the EIGCA) a lecture the night before we played Lahinch off the back, back tees and I was sceptical to say the least.  He was quiet but professional and very interesting to listen to. One book that never gets a mention on here is called The Golf Course by the Hawtrees and I feel it is one of the best architectural books around and is written with humour as well.

To say that I fell in love with Lahinch is an understatement.  Now, a number on here might say that the setting got to me but it wasn't it was the green complexes that I fell in love with and the routing which now is more similar to how MacKenzie routed it.

The only green that I thought that may be a little overdone is the second but that is being overly critical.  The rest of the course was great, the dune mounding put in between 14 and 15 is superb and looked very natural.

This is true minimalism, the untrained eye would not know what had been there before he arrived on site.  A couple of the guys that I spoke to who had played Lahinch before Martin got there and they said he had improved it.  So if fellow architects are saying that he managed to improve Lahinch isn't that one of the greatest compliments you can get?

Minimalism has never left these shores mainly due to budgets but also because the Europeans truly believe in it not just preach it.  One person I know that was involved with a huge project in Britain once said he thinks that British architects are afraid or don't have the experience to move huge quantities of material...maybe that is true?  I don't know, having worked in civil engineering for 8 years, the earthworks in golf are tiny so I am not afraid to move earth if I have to but only if neccesary.

I, like Kelly have a number of projects where we have some great photos of sites and finished work but it feels like advertising and that is not what this site is about.

Most on this site will never ever play any of the work being produced by architects on the continent and that is a shame.  People ask me why did I join the EIGCA after I was so critical a few years ago, well getting to go trips like the Ireland trip is one but also attending lectures with Dr. Martin Hawtree is another.

The one thing that the EIGCA helps me with is documentation, from contracts to pricing.  The engineering and construction side is pretty easy for me as I have worked on things from high speed railway lines, to tunnelling to blasting millions of cubic to get a runway in place but the actual documentation side is one thing that the EIGCA has been a big help on.

I would recommend it to anyone.  The EIGCA has always been a minimalist Institute...as I said, it never left these Isles..

Brian

[SPDB]

Ian - This is always the example I use:
From Royce Brook West.

Don't get me wrong, the quality of his bunkering is top drawer. He duplicates that sharp upper edge of MacKenzie's sandbelt courses better than anyone. I always thought that quality was turf specific, but he seems to be able to duplicate it everywhere. He's a cross between Thomas and Australia MacKenzie......on speed.

[url]http://www.roycebrook.com/pics/tour/W01.jpg[/img]

[Joe Hancock]

After the work I've seen at Angels Crossing, I'm anxious to see what direction Bruce Matthews III goes with his next opportunity.

Is he too far off the "list" to get any love here?

Joe

[ian]

Brian,

I was initially disappointed not to be working with Toronto again (long story), but I'm never too disappointed when the right architect is going to do the work. Where I struggle is when a hack claims expertise and then makes a mess. Martin is a very good choice for the club.

I have a copy of the Lahinch CD which was facinating, and look forward to one day seeing what seems to be universally praised work.


SPBD,

Thank-you for the link and the explaination. I must admit after seeing that image all I could say was Holy Cow!

I would love to see it on the ground, because I may have said the same about Hollywood if all I had seen was an aerial.


Joe,

Point taken, and all welcome

[mark chalfant]

Ian,

Ron Ferris, Tim Liddy, and Bruce Matthews spring to mind.



Joe  Hancock:    be careful,  some guys I know on this site
consider Michigan and  indiana to be" fly over" states.But
I wont mention any names.  MIKE  SWEENEY.......oops !!

[ian]

Mark,

Who is Ron Ferris? Could you provide an example of his work or describe what stands out to you about his designs.

[Joe Hancock]

Joe  Hancock:    be careful,  some guys I know on this site
consider Michigan and  indiana to be" fly over" states.But
I wont mention any names.  MIKE  SWEENEY.......oops !!

I hope they weren't flying over MI/IN to get to Ohio......

[Scott_Burroughs]

Mark,

Who is Ron Ferris? Could you provide an example of his work or describe what stands out to you about his designs.

Alright, Ian.  Here ya go, two old threads I started:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2172

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14235

In case you didn't see my post from the Dye tree thread, Ron came from the Dye tree, he was one of many future independent architects under Dye at Long Cove in the early 80's.

[Sean_A]

Mark B.

I am not sure which publications you read, but Chart Hills does not "rate" anywhere near as high as Loch Lomond.  I do think Chart is a good track.  I have never played Lomond, don't expect I ever will.  I thought this was Nick's baby, being a first effort effort and all.  It still seems to struggling for membership.  The organization consistently run ads seeking members.

Ciao

Sean

[ian]

Scott,

I remembered the photos right away, it must be one of those cases where the name just didn't stick. I do like what I saw on many of the images.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark C / Scott:

Good mention of Ron Ferris -- Red Rock in Rapid City is vastly undervalued as an affordable layout. Much is mentioned about Links of North Dakota and Hawktree in neighboring North Dakota. Red Rock surpasses them both for overall consistency and shot values IMHO.

Ian -- it's no doubt difficult to get to Rapid City, but Ron used to do plenty of work for the Dyes in Japan, if memory serves. You should look at the review Ron Whitten gave on the facility in golfdigest.com and then click on the link to his directory review. In my mind, Red Rock is on par with Wild Horse for the skillful routing that allows players to walk such a unique site that is no more than a 10-minute car ride from Mount Rushmore.

Ditto the mention of Tim Liddy -- although I believe many people are well aware of who he is. I believe The Trophy Club just outside Indy is another of those underrated gems that doesn't require a second mortgage to play it.

I also want to mention what others have already said -- Kelly Blake Moran's work at Morgan Hill is an impressive triump given the harsh nature of the site. At Morgan Hill, Moran used an inspired routing that doesn't fail to get to all sectors of the property. There are very few pedestrian holes and the overall impact of the layout is only beginning to be seen for what it is.

[ian]

Since Kelly won't do it, will somebody either link to a previous thread on Morgan Hill, or post a really good profile with some photos.

I have no clue how to use the search effectively on this site. I've tried a few times and have given up.

[Matt_Ward]

Ian:

Go to theclubatmorganhill.com -- there is a photo link for you to see a number of pictures. Trust me -- until you have walked the site there's no way to really appreciate the solid final result that Kelly did there.