What's the Best Course That NLE?

[Doug Wright]

Redanman's mention of Locust Valley being plowed under got me thinking of this: What is the best course that no longer exists? I know there were several in the Metro NYC area and some in LA, but I'd be curious what the best course was that NLE. (I'm sure some will say Augusta National   but that's not what I mean...)

Regards,

[Brian_Gracely]

Burroughs Farms "Little Course" - the 9 hole course in Brighton, MI where I learned to play the game.  No holes longer than 300yds, no sand traps, no water, $6 all you could play. Perfect place for a young kid to learn to hit shots and gain confidence.  The adults stayed on the "Big Course".

[Tyler Kearns]

Lido. An engineering masterpiece by Macdonald & Raynor, which was always mentioned in the same breath as Pine Valley & NGLA. I believe the course was a victim of suburbanization on Long Island.

TK

[TEPaul]

There's no question at all it's The Lido.

[TEPaul]

Tyler:

The devolution of The Lido was a lot more than suburbanization. It began to happen right out of the box and Lido is not just the best course that's NLE but it could also be the best "cautionary tale" ever that the truth is nothing may work no matter how good if timing is poor and the overall concept for either prosperity or even survival is not well thought out first. Building even that course there for that kind of money in that era with that use in mind was a basic "three strikes and you're out before you even arrive at the plate".

[TEPaul]

Brian:

No one who's alive today could've played The Lido when it was decent. Just read Macdonald's book and you'll see why. Literally when he went back to it the first time within just a few years after finishing it was one of the biggest disappointments he ever had. Within just a year or two the maintenance on the course had turned down really significantly and the heavyweight principles who got him to build it the way they did were trying to dump the place to a real estate development company that never took care of the course the way it should've been kept. It's really extraordinary that The Lido became that famous (for its architecture) that quickly and began to devolve that quickly. I'm sure no course in history made that kind of impression and then basically went to pieces that fast!

[THuckaby2]

This question has come up before... didn't Patrick Mucci know or talk to someone who HAD played Lido when it was great?  I found that very interesting... I also could be imagining things.

TH

[TEPaul]

Dave:

How do we today know The Lido was that great without playing it? Because if any of us can't figure out that we really can take the words and opinions of the huge amount of quality analysts back in the day the course came on-stream then we aren't very competent golf analysts or people who understand the truths and fact of history very well.

[cary lichtenstein]

In Chicago, Tam O'Shanter

[John_Conley]

Missing Links is devoted to this sole topic.

[T_MacWood]

This would be a good question for Daniel Wexler. I get the impression he would agree with Lido. Some others: Timber Point, Olympic-Ocean, Boca Raton, Mill Road Farm, Royal Palms, Sea Island, Tailor's Ocean Links, St. Andre, Tokyo and CC of Havana.

[Jeff_Mingay]

There's mention of an old Stanley Thompson course in Toronto called St. Andrews that NLE. Historical reports claim Thompson designed the course in conjunction with a "famous Scottish architect".

Knowing Thompson had met with Dr. MacKenzie in Toronto a few times (apparently re: the formation of an International Society of Golf Course Architects), my feeling is it could very well have been The Good Doctor.

A Thompson/MacKenzie layout! Now, that would be something to see, eh!

[wsmorrison]

Cary,

I don't know anything about the Tam O' Shanter course you refer to but I have studied at length (appropriate term) the private course of Albert Lasker, Mill Road Farm, designed by Flynn in 1926.  At 7000 yards, it was a very difficult golf course, considered by Bobby Jones and Tommy Armour to be one of the three most difficult courses in the country and a great course.  I know that it wasn't well known and didn't get much play, but would be hard to believe it isn't the best NLE in the Chicago area.

Likewise, and we've had discussions on this topic before, the Boca Raton South course was absolutely great by anyone's standards.  For a good description of MRF and BRS, see "Missing Links" by Dan Wexler.  Boca Raton North, not as great as South but quite good, is in the second Wexler volume, "Lost Links."

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Lido was more a victim of its own decadence. It could never overcome the cost it took to build it as well as the timing with the War to End All Wars.

In 1938, a heavy rains and the flooding of Long Island really did more damage to the course, actually washing away many of the important features of the par 3, 8th and the many of the other holes on or around it. The beach club was built and the course was further altered, until the Navy took it all over in 1941 and turned most of the fairways into weapons storage and in some areas--missle silos. It wasn't till after that is when the suburbanization took place.

Between those years the course was sold three different times and one of them at public auction.

Los Angeles' lost great courses were more victims of suburbanization and WWII then they were of the Great Depression. While many of the courses were close to foreclosure, many of them were saved on the steps of the federal courts.

There were several that fell victim to the Great Fall--some of them excellent courses with-in their own right. The best view of all of these is Daniel Wexler's Missing Links and Lost Links. Both GREAT BOOKS that all of you need to go buy.

--The Royal Palms--an amazing story in its own right. From what I can tell, it must have been an amazing golf course with an incredible routing on a most dramatic piece of land. Billy Bell.

--El Caballero--Maybe Billy Bell's best

--St. Andrews Golf Course--located right below El Cab on what is now Ventura Blvd. Norman MacBeth, and from the information found pretty unique--it had two sets of greens for every hole.

--Hollywood CC--Norman MacBeth again

--Pasadena CC--I look at the aerials of this one and still cringe. It was located in a sandy wash which half of it now is Altedena GC.

--Midwick CC--Willie Watson with an amazing Billy Bell remodel. Driving around the site today, you can still see that the old water tower is still there. All houses now, many of the streets are all named after famous clubs of the East.

--California CC--Another one that hurts. This might have been a really good course. REALLY GOOD. David Moriarty lives on the North end of where the course once existed We were driving around the streets one day in just amazment of the scale of the property and the rolling nature of it all.

--Fox Hills CC--I want to cry on this one. George Thomas design, 36 holes. I have friends that played it and said it was nothing less then great. They said the bunkers were very unique.

--Sunset Hills G.C.--Could have been, if full plans were carried out, LA's answer to Bethpage Park, only with a view.  36 holes got built with two other 18's and a nine planned. One of the 18's was going to be an "executive course" as stated in the LA Times, designed for businessmen to come and play a quick 18 in less then two hours and then get back to the office. All Billy Bell designed, and then during the depression, he actually both managed and ran the two courses until Tillie came to town! A round of golf for $1.00 on as Billy Bell Sr. course--I have the advertisements!

--Urban CC--This was located in Sante Fe Springs at what is now either the Candlewood CC or another site near there. I haven't found out exactly yet. Many greats played there from Sarazen to Hagen; Max Behr to Charlie Seaver (Tom Seaver's dad) to Dr. Hunter (Robert Hunter's brother.)

BUT

Maybe the GREATEST COURSE never to have been built.

Dr. Alister MacKenzie in Dana Point!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I know nothing about it, so, does anyone know how good Abercrombie's 2nd 18 at The Addington might have been?

[Phil_the_Author]

The father of one of the retired volunteer tour guides at the PGA of America's museum & Probst Library in Port St. Lucie Florida, was an original member of Lido. He two played it in his youth and thinks its the greatest ever.

After speaking with him about it at length, I believed him, until I had the privilege of seeing the actual blueprints used in the field with the original notations on, that were used during the actual construction of Timber Point. For anyone who would like to view them, they are in the collection of the New York State Archives in Albany.

I sat stunned looking at what was planned and built (there were some original photos as well). I can't imagine a greater use of bunkering on an American links course.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

There used to be a course proximal to Kilmarnock Barssie that I was told was as good as Western Gailes.
I think it was used for war time exercises and never restored.
You can see it from Barrasie and the layout looks fantastic..Mark can you help me on this one?

[Doug Wright]

I have Lost Links, which is very good.  I just took another look at it, and I'd forgotten that Daniel Wexler actually includes ANGC as part of the lost courses! An interesting discussion, I wouldn't say that ANGC qualifies but hey it's his book (he also has a section on "lost holes").

Anyway, I started the thread not to direct people to Wexler's books, but to get your thoughts on the best NLE. Thanks for the replies.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Doug,
Count me as one that thinks Augusta National is the King of the Lost Links. Everything about the course's original design has changed. Some of you may like it, but as one who worships the work of one Dr. Alister MacKenzie--it sucks.

[Paul_Turner]

From pics it looked to be Timber Point.

In Europe, perhaps:  St Andre sur Mer, Lombarzyde and the third course at Zoute.  All destroyed by Adolf.

Mark

Seen a couple of pics of Addington New, but not much else:  looked nice.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Michael,

I don't know, but I'll have a shot.  

Mark.

[ian]

There's mention of an old Stanley Thompson course in Toronto called St. Andrews that NLE. Historical reports claim Thompson designed the course in conjunction with a "famous Scottish architect".

I know the last owners son very well. I will fully investigate this for you and let you know. I was going to gather the details on St. Andrews, the daughter aparently has a wonderful historical collection of photos. St. Andrews was a busy blue collar public course. I have never had the impression that it was ever great.

Willie Park Jr. maintained an office in Weston Ontario up until the time he was too sick to travel. I would bet on Willie over Mack.

In Canada it could be Box Grove, but most likely was the origional York Downs by Alison.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian,

Very interesting. The Park link in particular.

I wonder how old the historical photos of St. Andrews she has might be? (Like, I hope it's not 1960... we need photos from the '30s!)

Rubenstein told me he played St. Andrews when he was a kid. But he doesn't have much memory of the course these days (too much Scotch since, I presume! Just teasing, Lorne).

St. Andrews is a course we need to know more about. Along with Green Gables.

I'm also in the process of extensively researching Shaughnessy (Macan in Vancouver), which I consider to bascially be a lost course these days. It appears so many changes to the original design of the holes have been made... although, I concede, I could be proven wrong.  

[T_MacWood]

Los Angeles (and Billy Bell) has been injured as much as an city.

Some other Canadian NLE: Old Royal Montreal, Summerlea and sadly it appears Manoir Richelieu.

From everything I've read the New course at Addington was very good.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Schmidt,

Get used to it.  

Tom Huckaby,

You're selective memory is working well.
Two friends of mine played it many times.
Unfortunately, both are with CBM.
They did rave about it though, and they had seen a good number of other great golf courses in their lives.

Tommy Naccarato,

I'd disagree with you regarding ANGC.

How much HANDS ON input did the good Doctor have ?

The routing remains intact, as does most of the golf course and its features.

Some feel that changes to # 7, # 10 and # 16 have been for the better.  Others lament the loss of some green features such as # 9 green and the introduction of "rough" albeit mostly benign, and trees, which tend to influence those who hit the ball 300 yards, and not the rest of the real golfing world.

It remains a wonderful golf course.

Do the new, back tees at TOC diminish its standing ?
Does redoing the road hole bunker diminish its value ?

I've come to realize and accept that ANGC now serves a different Master, but, it remains a great golf course.