Golf Digest Match Play: Rees vs. Fazio

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, To show you what those bunkers used to look like before they WISELY decided to let the sands take over....This is the same bunkers as in Michael's shot, only from a different angle.

Once again, these are the same bunkers only different angle.



Since you like the 11th so much, here's some shots of it.





Pat,
Your acting like Sandpines is some sort of really good acheivement to give it so much credit as well as your dilligence to deefending it. Its SHIT architecture and it is one of the worst Top 100 rated courses of all-time. It was a huge mistake by all panels to have rated it there. I have played the course many times, walked it just to study the architecture, and trying to quiz Tom Mac on elevations, laughable at best.

Who cares?

The course will live in infamy in both of our minds (you know this) as well as those who got ripped-off by Rees Jones Incorporated. (The original owners and the town of Florence, Oregon)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

The drifting Oblique Dunes didn't change those bunkers one bit.  You can show as many angles as you'd like, the dunes haven't altered the bunker style or configuration.

And, as one who has been exceedingly critical of Sandpines, I'd question whether Michael Dugger possesses the objectivity to present a fair and balanced photo presentation.

When Tom MacWood presents evaluative opinions on a site he's never seen on a golf course that he's never seen, I think questioning him is valid.

Let the expert who's made judgements, and told us how those dunes could be stabilized, tell us how to do it.  
Don't protect and answer for him, and don't you or anyone else supply him with the information.  Let him answer the questions with the same data base that he made his evaluations, criticisms and recommendations.

I like # 11.  And, the bunker bank ripples may have been caused by erosion more then construction.  A little money and fine tuning would make that a terrific bunker.  The basics are there.

I never said that Sandpines was a top 100 golf course.
But, it's a hell of a lot better then you've led people to believe.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat, It is an architectural joke. Something like a story Golf Architects tell their children at bedtime when trying to scare them about going into the business.......

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate the site ?

[T_MacWood]

Pat
What opinion did I present of the site (this is typical Pat...trying to change the subject and deflect attention)?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Macwood,

I'd recommed some of Tom Simpson's methods of dealing with drifting sanddunes.

Since your memory is conveniently failing you, here's your quote where you're telling the people at Sandpines and Rees what methods to use with respect to dealing with drifting dunes, dunes you've NEVER seen, even though I doubt Simpson ever dealt with Oblique Dunes, especially not of the magnitude that exists at Sandpines.

So there you have it Tom, the opinion you denied rendering.
Typed by your own hands.[/color]

Although the real experts are the Dutch who have been dealing with these situations successfully for many years.

Would you tell me where the Dutch dealt with Oblique Dunes ?
Would you tell me where the Dutch dealt with Oblique Dunes of the magnitude that exist at Sandpines, with the seasonal wind and wind velocities that exist at Sandpines ?

You rendered your opinion WITHOUT EVER having seen the site.

Do you remember now ?[/color]

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
I rate Golf Club Atlas--the site a "2."  Especially when it comes to posting on threads like this one!

Is it me or are you playing the Devil's Advocate and disagreeing with everyone on every thread your posting on? Where's T.E. Paul when you need him?!?!?!

That being........Go Charlie Weis!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

I can't reveal the intent of my post or positions.

But, I am curious, how would you rate the Sandpines site prior to any developmental work ?

As to TEPaul, he's busy reconstructing a corner of a barn he destroyed earlier today while driving some farm equipment.

[T_MacWood]

Patrick 'Oblique Dune' Mucci

Recommending the expertise of Simpson and the Dutch is presenting an "evaluative opinions on a site he's never seen"?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

We're all ignorant, albeit on different topics.

Oblique Dunes and Sandpines are not your forte.

Could you answer the questions I posed ?
If you don't know the answers, just say so.

[T_MacWood]

"Oblique Dunes and Sandpines are not your forte."

Pat
You've got that right!

This is a forum where we share what we know and what we have disovered. Share with us your quite impressive knowledge of oblique dunes and how they excuse Rees Jones' architecture?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

In what context would you judge my answers ?

You've never been to Sandpines and
you've never seen the Oblique Dunes there.

How can you make the evaluation that Rees Jones's architecture is bad at Sandpines when you've never seen it or the site it sits on ?

You're out of your element and league on this one.
Stick to things you know about.
Being spoon fed from the west coast doesn't become you.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
"In what context would you judge my answers ?"

In the context of a reasonably intelligent, reasonably educated person. (I have Ian McHarg's book, and I've read a few articles on dune stabilization...both from a golfing and preservationist perspective)

This is a site where we share information (see the Trees thread), not where we try to present ourselves as some kind of superior experts in a battle of one ups-manship.

Share with us your knowledge of dunes.

[SPDB]

I have no horse in this race (although I have seen Sandpines), but in doing some research on dunes, I came across this. Evidently the folks out in OR are ahead of the MacWood (and Mucci  ) curve.

From the article Researchers solve mysteries of Oregon's dunes, A.P. May 14, 2004.

Regarding the dune sheet between Coos Bay and Florence

Thanks to the research in the past six years, identifying those kinds of areas along the coast will be easier. Peterson said many Oregon Coast homes are built on variably cemented dune areas such as some of the cliffside homes near Newport.

Peterson noted that much of what the team has learned and how it has determined to proceed with the study is based on research done in other countries.

In the Netherlands, he said, dike systems prevent seawater from flooding lowland areas; researchers there already know a lot about how the sand moves around their coastline.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Three weeks ago you didn't know a thing about Oblique dunes and Sandpines, but now that you've read a few books you're an expert.

So tell us, how should Rees have stabilized the dunes ?

Tell us how the Dutch would have stabilized those dunes ?

Tell us how Simpson would have stabilized those dunes ?

And then tell us how Rees should have stabilized the dunes that WEREN"T on the Sandpines property ?

Without any familiarity with the specific site and the problems encountered, you could be as intelligent as you would like and still not have sufficient data upon which to judge an answer.

You're the expert on dune stabilization, so tell us how Rees should have done it.

In telling us about the GCA.com, why don't you tell us about the need for posting with intellectual honesty, or have you conveniently forgotten that as well.

Remind me again, when did you visit and play Sandpines ?

And, what's the elevation differential between # 9 green and
# 12 tee ?

Go read some more books.
Perhaps you can learn as much from them as you can from reading books about parenting and sex.
Then try dealing with those subjects in the real world based upon all of the knowledge that you've gained from reading those books.

SPDB,

How did you see Sandpines ?
Did you play it ?
Did you walk the entire course ?

Are you now proposing that dikes be built to barricade and impede the shifting dunes ?  Or are you recommending that they cement the dunes ?  I'm not clear on your recommendations.

These are not ocean front dunes and they are not cliff dunes.

[SPDB]

SPDB,

How did you see Sandpines ?
with my eyes
Did you play it ?
No
Did you walk the entire course ?
Not the entire course
Are you now proposing that dikes be built to barricade and impede the shifting dunes ?  
What gave you the idea I was proposing anything?
Or are you recommending that they cement the dunes ?  
What gave you the idea I was recommending anything?
I'm not clear on your recommendations.
There's a reason for that.
These are not ocean front dunes and they are not cliff dunes.

Yes, I understand that. The dune study in the article was taken from the dune sheet that stretches south from Florence to Coos Bay, and includes Sandpines. The particular sample the scientist in the article references is further inland than the dune to the north of Sandpines.

I have no recommendations whatever for Sandpines, I do know they tried to plant European beach grasses and scotch broom, before the BLM told them not to. I just thought the reference to the Netherlands was interesting in light of Tom M's comments and responses.

As I said in my previous post, I have no horse in this race.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
Also a little bit of more Oregon Dunes history.

For years, or for a better time frame--the turn of the 19th century, The US Forestry Service planted actual Scottish Gorse, Broom and other dune grasses from Great Britain in order to prevent the constant changing of the dunes from the torments of wind and rain and make the area more habitable. This would also stabalize the dunes quite dramatically.

How ironic that 100 years later they are removing all of that to save the dunes!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

It's also interesting to note that densely treed forests were overrun by these dunes, leaving little more then "island forests" in their midst.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
This is true.

Sandpines top, right in front of its Oblique is in fact a island forest, or what's left of one. Here is the photos to show it.

From the #8 tee, looking at the right side, the back of the Oblique Dune line. #12 tee is to the right of it, showing the elevation change of the Oblique dune to its floor and then into the Parabola which drops to the left, past the trees. These were planted by the Bureau of Land Managment to prevent further sand from blowing into the hills.


This is the 9th green. Showing more of the Oblique and how it starts to fall off. Still its got to be close to 35 feet deep from the floor of this fairway to the top of the dune.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

Thanks,

Those trees to the right don't look to healthy.

I was already aware of the elevation changes between # 12 tee and # 9 green.

If I ask Tom MacWood what the elevation change is between
# 12 tee and # 12 green do you promise not to post pictures and slip him the answers ?

P.S.  Look at Sportscenter on ESPN tonight

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

For years, or for a better time frame--the turn of the 19th century, The US Forestry Service planted actual Scottish Gorse, Broom and other dune grasses from Great Britain in order to prevent the constant changing of the dunes from the torments of wind and rain and make the area more habitable. This would also stabalize the dunes quite dramatically.

How ironic that 100 years later they are removing all of that to save the dunes!

I don't believe the planting of the European Beach grass and other plants was done on Oblique Dunes.

I'm told that NO vegetation can grow on Oblique Dunes due to their size and constant shifting.  If they can bury forests, I can't see plantings having any impact on preventing their movement.

They are extraordinary features.

What I am amazed about is that the State of Oregon permited them to be destroyed, vis a vis development, as they can never be replaced, and only exist in a limited area of the world.[/color]

[T_MacWood]

"Three weeks ago you didn't know a thing about Oblique dunes and Sandpines, but now that you've read a few books you're an expert."

Patrick 'Oblique Dune' Mucci
I know as little about oblique dunes today as I did three weeks ago...that is where I was hoping you would help out...are you going to share your knowledge or not?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

When you tell us how you can evaluate Rees's architecture at Sandpines without ever seeing the site or the golf course pre and post work, then I'll consider expounding on oblique dunes.

Fair enough ?

[T_MacWood]

The day I evaluate Rees's work at Sandpines is the day someone drags me there at gun point. If you prefer to keep your vast oblique dune knowledge to yourself, so be it...the world is a poorer place for it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

How would you know of Rees's work at Sandpines without ever having seen it ?

Or, are you close minded, easily influenced, and willing to accept other opinions as the gospel ?