Mac v. Doak

[Mike Hendren]

In the 5 Architects thread Tom Doak points out that you get his future work as well.  So I ask you,  narrow The Good Doctor's portfolio to just Cypress Point Club and Augusta National Golf Club.     Who among you would take Doak past/present/future over CPC and ANGC (as is)?  Why or why not?  

Mike  

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, it's too hard to forget the Valley Club, Pasatiempo, Crystal Downs, Meadow Club, Scarlet at Ohio State, Royal Melbourne, all his other great work.  I'm playing at Allwoodley in July 2005 if all goes well.  It's too hard to compare two architects of different eras, but why not?  The good Doctor is a worthy icon to emulate but Tom is doing it his way with opportunities to work on equally good terrain.

[Dale_McCallon]

I agree with Bill that Mac's resume is impressive (understatement of the year), but Doak has one advantage--the ability to travel in today's world.  Sites that may have never been seen, much less thought about for golf (Barndougle, Cape Kidnappers) are now spots people plan on seeing.  In today's smaller global village, Doak (and others in today's world) are going to have the opportunity to build courses in places such as China, Russia, or anywhere else the mind can wander.  

Augusta was built in a Southern town convenient for Eastern Seaboard types a spot to play in the winter or on way to/from Florida.  Cypress is near San Fran--and is Cypress for God's sake!  Of course, Mac may have started the trend of going to new out of the way places with his travels to Australia, but even then it seems he stayed in more metro areas where people could get to easily.  

So in one hundred years what will people think in Mac v Doak--well obviously Mac's rep is set for life so he has nothing to worry about.  But Doak I'm sure will be still be talked about and I would not be suprised if when said and done his resume is even more varied.

[THuckaby2]

Great question, Mike.

And I'm gonna go the opposite route.  Give me Augusta and Cypress and I'm pretty damn certain I could be happy playing forever.  Now of course the risk is I lose out on a future Doak masterpiece, not to mention some pretty damn great current Doak offerings, but well... Augusta and Cypress are just about as much of a sure thing as one gets in this golf life.  Covers both coasts and all possible weather issues also.

TH

[Brian_Gracely]

Reducing the good Doctor's work is somewhat unfair unless you also reduce Doak's work to just the US.  But if it must be done, then I'd reduce the McK's work to just CPC and Crystal Downs and take it over Doak's for the singular reason that Northern Michigan and Monterey are the two finest places in the country.  

...but it's killing me to think of never playing Sheep Ranch.  The concept of Sheep Ranch alone, if it never becomes more than a very cool pasture, might be enough for me to sway my vote.  Tell me about Oregon....  

btw - if Tom D. ever sees this thread, or anybody knows the TRUTH....whose idea was it to build Sheep Ranch - Doak or Keiser?  Who had the original idea on a napkin in the bar over drinks?

[THuckaby2]

...but it's killing me to think of never playing Sheep Ranch.    

That thought occurred to me as well.

But I believe we would be soothed by countless rounds at Cypress and Augusta.  And remember as golfers entitled to this access, we could and would do some all-terrain golf.  How about 16 tee to 17 green at Cypress?  18 tee down to 16 green?  12 tee to 15 green?  The possibilities are endless, and that's just in the odd event we tire of playing the courses as they are.

TH

[Brian_Gracely]

Huck,

I think for the first couple of years, I would just play #8-9 at CPC.  I can conceive of playing both of those holes where I hit the tee-shot or approach with almost every club (and combination) in my bag.  

And at the end of each day, I'd walk over to #15 tee, hit one shot and then watch the sunset.  

[JakaB]

One round at either Cypress or Augusta and I don't give a damn if I ever step foot on a Doak again...he will never build anything that changes the face of golf....unless he goes blind that is...

[John_Cullum]

I'm with Huck and Barney on this, and I've never done a Doak. But if you can't be happy with Augusta and Cypress, you're a difficult customer.

[JakaB]

John,

Just to be clear...Huck, the greedy bastard he is..wants countless rounds...I just want one round at either..

[Bill_McBride]

The really good news, laddies, is that we can play a bunch of MacKenzie courses AND a bunch of Doak courses!  Why be "either / or" when you can play 'em both?

To me the best of the classic and neo-classic, although I still haven't had the pleasure of playing a MacDonald-Raynor classic!

[Brian_Gracely]

In defense of Doak, since it appears that he's getting kicked off the proverbial island, the cool factor that I experience at CPC and Lost Dunes were very comparible...and Lost Dunes isn't considered Doak's best.

To make a fair comparison, and ignoring the history at CPC, would people be willing to make comparisons between CPC and Pacific Dunes if PD wasn't part of a larger resort?  Will that eventually keep it from reaching the highest levels in people's minds?  

[Mike Hendren]

I hate to say this, and Tom D., don't hate me, but as I said a few months ago, the best work in most artistic fields is done by the pioneers.  Odds are that the classics (why do you think they call them classics?) will never be topped.  It's like cars.  Today's Corvette or Mustang or Ferrarri is technically a better car, but I can't imagine that the '63 split-widow, the "67 Mustang or the Daytona Spyder will ever be topped.

Shivasity,

Excellent analogy that hits at the heart of my initial post.  

Thanks.

[Bill_McBride]

Just realized my post #11 above is a bit "Huckaby-ish!"

[THuckaby2]

Bill - that was a bit too positive.  Come on man, negativity is the coin of the realm here... you sure as hell don't want to be like me, always happy.  What a dreadful life.  

And John, Mike didn't say this was for one round... I just got the impression this was where we'd spend our remaining golfing days... I guess I read it wrong.

If this to be based on one round at CP and Augusta v. one round at every Doak course in existence present and future... well.... I believe in all sincerity I would give up rights to all Doak courses for such.  And I say this having had the incredible great fortune to have already played Cypress four times, and knowing full well what I'd be missing in Australia and New Zealand and Oregon, among other places.  THis ought to tell you just how I feel about Augusta.  Life dream, that's what that place is for me.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Mike H:

Isn't it a bit premature to start comparing / assessing
people -- especially someone STILL active in the field versus someone long since gone?

Why not wait until the record of Tom Doak expands to include other courses in his portfolio?

This is not different than the rush to judgement football commentators have made concerning Peyton Manning and the all-time great quarterbacks like Dan Marino, John Elway and Joe Montana, to name just three.

I have great respect for Mackenzie designs and clearly Tom Doak is a tremendously talented fellow -- I'd like to see what kind of serious depth Doak is able to achieve in the next few years before even beginning to make such an analysis of which one has the better listing of courses. To do so now is entirely premature IMHO.

[TEPaul]

I'd take Doak's Pacific Dunes over ANGC. I say that about Pac Dunes because I think it's a truly fascinating statement and necessary difference for American architecture. I'd take it over ANGC for the same reason I don't think Michael Jackson is 1/10th as interesting today as he was when he was a afro-headed, teeny bopping, natural high-squealing voiced, little water-bug super-star who probably could've done the moon walk if someone just asked him to even though he may never have thought of it before!

I'd take CPC over anything Doak's done past or present. In the future? Who knows? That's why the future can always be interesting!

[THuckaby2]

TEP:

Have you played Augusta already?  That might explain things.  

As for me, oh I understand all the issues brought up on here quite often about how it's been butchered, it's not the course it was meant to be, etc.  

BUT.. it remains the home of the Masters and I just plain can't imagine playing it being anything but a life-altering experience.  See, I could give a rat's ass about architecture, as compared with reliving the countless famous, epic, heroic, legendary shots I've witnessed on TV over the years.  The fact that I'd guess the course is damn fun to play even in its current bastardized state just is the cherry on top of this sundae, for me anyway.

So although I love Pacific Dunes and hell yes I am mortgaging my marital future to go up and play it AGAIN next year, well....

To me this isn't even close.  I don't care what statement each course makes nor what it means to architecture nor anything else, really.  I had fun at Pacific Dunes and do think it's a great course... but playing it didn't change my life.

Playing Augusta would.

And I can't possibly explain why... those who feel this way - and I feel confident there are many - know what I am talking about.

TH

[TEPaul]

"TEP:
Have you played Augusta already? That might explain things."

TomH:

Oh sure--probably a hundred times. It's been a good long while now but neither Arnie nor Jack would go there often without taking me along!  

"See, I could give a rat's ass about architecture, as compared with reliving the countless famous, epic, heroic, legendary shots I've witnessed on TV over the years.  The fact that I'd guess the course is damn fun to play even in its current bastardized state just is the cherry on top of this sundae, for me anyway."

I realize you couldn't give a rat's ass about architecture compared to those other things. That's part of your problem! You probably get just as big a thrill going to that turn-stile tourist trap, Graceland, just because Elvis lived there 25 years ago!  

Don't get me wrong---Elvis was the KING and he still is but Graceland's a thundering let-down.

[THuckaby2]

TEP:

I know I am often completely full of shit, but these were sincere, honest questions and descriptions.  I truly and sincerely do not know if you have played Augusta - I assume that you have - but once again, have you?

As for the rest, oh hell I like the King as much as the next man, but not enough to want to go to Graceland.  I absolutely live and die for this great game of ours, as you must realize, and hold early April as my most cherished TV viewing time.  I really do love the Masters.  So I am not spouting any shit in my posts in this thread.  I truly do believe playing there would be life-changing.

Maybe this helps explain things better.  But then again, maybe you just feel like giving me a hard time.  Either way is fine with me.

I just wanted to put forth the feeling that man does not live by architecture alone.  And you know what?  He doesn't.

TH

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I would take CPC over almost anything else I have played or seen , but on these shores, Pacific Dunes is something very special.
I remember walking off the course, turning to my friends and saying, "As much as it hurts me to say this as a Brit, I think I may have just played the best links course in the world"

As wonderful as Augusta was , I do not think I was in as much awe as I was when I played P.Dunes..I know that seems crazy and almost sinful, but that is how I felt.

At this point the body of work is in Dr Mac's favour, yet I wonder at the respective stages of their career, if that is the case.
Possibly Mr Doak's work at this stage of his career is better than that of his predecesor, but that is open for debate.
Also one could argue that Mr Doak does have the pioneers to go by in his quest, whilst the likes of Dr Mac were somehat making it up as they went along.
SO that nobody accuses me of being ignorant, I do realise that there were golf courses before Dr Mac, and he did have some gudance.

I guess that is my longwinded limey way of just about giving the old master the egde..I choose Dr Mac

[George Pazin]

Put me down in the redanman camp re: Augusta. Sure I'd love to play it, but no more than many other great courses. I guess when you have played many or most of the world's greatest, you prize the elusive ones that you haven't played. But if someone said I could go to any course I wanted tomorrow, ANGC wouldn't even be in my top 10. My wish list changes quite frequently (usually has to do with Ran's latest profile or Paul Turner's latest find), but ANGC just isn't that high on my list. Fortunately for me, my wish list courses are infinitely easier to access that ANGC as well, so I guess I'm lucky.

As for Mac v Tom D, I'd say anyone that couldn't be thrilled with either has a problem that is well beyond my ability to understand.

[THuckaby2]

As wonderful as Augusta was , I do not think I was in as much awe as I was when I played P.Dunes..I know that seems crazy and almost sinful, but that is how I felt.

Really?
At first, that seems unbelievable to me.  I mean please, Pacific Dunes is a wonderful course, the closest thing to links golf that we get in these United States most likely, but I sure as hell felt no particular awe there... Maybe because I have played a LOT of real links courses in the UK and Ireland... I did find it to be a truly great course, one deserving of its accolades.  But awe?  I felt that at St. Andrews, Muirfield, several others, but not at Pacific Dunes.  I guess it comes down to one's history.

And that's what makes me find your take on Augusta understable, Michael.  From what I read here, I gather you are a well-traveled golfer who competes at darn near the highest amateur levels, correct?  For someone like that, the Masters as an awe-inspiring thing holds no particular allure, given it's not completely far-fetched that you could actually play in it some day, correct?  Work with me on this.  

For a yokel like me who's lucky to be a 6 handicap and win his club championship in a feat of pure luck... well... competing at high levels is not reality.

Thus Augusta as home of the Masters has a different allure... it has the feel of being the closest thing to golf heaven a guy like me could aspire to.  To walk in those footsteps, at that place... well it's just so impossible and unreal that were it to truly happen, it would indeed be life-changing.  You wanna talk AWE?  Hell I'd be lucky to be able to bring the club back on the first tee.  I'd probably faint on 12.

So different strokes for different folks, you know?

I'd just have to guess that once again outside this extremely well-traveled, well-connected forum, well.... the percentages of those who feel awe at Augusta v. those who do so at Pacific Dunes is gonna run about 90/10.

TH

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Tom Huck,
I think you have some valid points there.
I would not be arrogant enough to assume that getting to Augusta as a player is on the cards. However, much in the same way that I think Jamie Slonis would think, it is not beyond the realms of possiblites that a US Mid Am title could happen..at least that is what one strives for and spends all those hours practicing for, to be the best you can be, and see what happens.

I think for me, what was so inspiring about Pacific Dunes is that it was so unexpected.
Yes, I had read all the hype, but I have read many articles on great'LINKS' course from these shores and always been dissapointed.
Even having played Bandon the first day I was there, I thought okay another reasonalbe links course, but nothing to compare with about ten or fifteen at least "back home"

But then Pacific and wow..I truly was stunned, in my British arogance I just did not believe I would ever see a course like that in the US.

So, I think that more than anything makes me think like a lunatic regarding my feelings towards Augusta v/s Pacific.
I also think that when you go to ANGC,  you kind of know what to expect..although the elevation changes blew me away, even expecting them...and although it certainly does not dissapoint, it is a sense of .....that is what I expected.
I dont know if that makes any sense at all

[THuckaby2]

Michael:

That makes great sense and I do appreciate the reply.  And yes, Mid-Am title was what I meant by not being far-fetched... as the thing guys like you and Jamie must have in the back of your mind.  That's not arrogance at all - it's a goal to strive for and to me is wonderful.

And I get what you are saying re expectations also.  You had the luxury of not being inundated by previews and photos of Pacific Dunes, obviously.  For me it went the other way... I will say just how great it is took me by surprise, but as for what it was and how it was, well... that was a known quantity to me.  See by the time I played there only about 500 photos of it had been posted on this site!

So I can absolutely understand that seeing it for the first time, with no preview, well it sure could blow one away.  Whereas Augusta is a known quantity for sure, for all golfers.

My thing though is that just as an average golfer and huge fan of the Masters, well... that trumps it all for me.  In fact one of the things I'd relish playing there IS the fact that I think I know it.... for me it would be very fun to see how reality compares with my TV/Masters-produced impressions.

So you are not a lunatic Michael, far from it.  Hell if there is a lunatic in this it is likely ME for how I rant and rave about the meaning of Augusta.  It is after all just a golf course, and life-changing events should be reserved for weddings, births, funerals and the like.

But damn it holds that kind of allure for me!

TH