Would Pine Valley still be #1 if ....

[Brian_Gracely]

...the rankings started today, instead of 50yrs ago, and the years of tradition weren't necessarily such a huge factor?  Ignoring the club, the members cache, the exclusivity, etc.

...the magazines weren't US-based?

And for that matter, would the Top 10 or Top 50 be anywhere near the same?  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Great question,
I believe that as long as the rankings reflect superlative architecture, Pine Valley will always be close to the top of any rankings list.

So few courses can be considered as original pieces of golf course architecture, on such fantastic terrain, that it is inevitable that the treasure that is Pine Valley will always be a contender for the worlds finest.

[JakaB]

I think the modern magazine rater would have trouble understanding the double greens...it would be seen as a confusing comprimise that would keep the course out of the top 10...

[Joel_Stewart]

Generally yes.  Whats better?   I've always thought you have the top 5 which are in a league of their own and then everything else with PV leading the pack.  

With all that said, I haven't played PV in 3 years and I've heard of some of the changes.  If Brewer/Fazio keep messing than it may have some problems.

[Sam Sikes]

yes

[TEPaul]

Joel:

The changes to PV are basically all tee length additions which hasn't exactly changed the architecture of the holes--the additional tees are just a choice. A couple of fairways were bunkered a bit narrowing them slightly. It'd be very hard for someone to tell that even if they really know the course well without a photo of the way those fairways were previously. I sure don't advocate narrowing the fairways of PV which have always been the same width but they did it on three holes but very slightly. Those new bunkers are really good though--at least they look like they've been there forever.

Instead of over-analyzing every little detail of PV whoever said above 'What's better?' has got a pretty good point.

[Steve Lapper]

Easily!

Why? Because few, if any courses anywhere, have the complete 18 hole architectual and shot-making values of PV. Other than the maybe one or two holes that MIGHT be deemed "weaker" than the others, every hole on the course would likely stand out as a shining and noteworthy examples of top 1-5 holes of their kind in the USA or world.

Jaka's quote:
"I think the modern magazine rater would have trouble understanding the double greens...it would be seen as a confusing comprimise that would keep the course out of the top 10... "

   This is a perfect question that reframes the argument: Isn't it obvious that the modern magazine rater lacks the creativity, sophistication and historical perspective to add any real value to the measurement or judgement process???

PV, from the moment you cross the railroad tracks until the moment you leave easily deserves the premier golf course and club designation of its kind on this planet.

[James Edwards]

Brian,

For my money, if they did a little sensitive tree clearance of say a "xx,xxx trees", and brought the course's sense of place and awesone architecture back into the equation, then the course would be even better than people have ever thought since the rankings started.

[TEPaul]

Steve:

You're so right about the magazine raters and what they look at and don't seem to know what to look at. I think I'm very close to getting them to include in their rating and ranking evaluations how much better the architecture of any course would be if they could play the course with Heidi Klum when she had a see-through golf shirt on!

[TEPaul]

James:

They are doing tree clearing and one should expect more of it. What they never will do though is return the golf course to the look of some of those very early photographs and there're excellent reasons for that---eg Crump did not want that for his course. He removed app 22,000 trees from that site to both experiment with proposed holes and build his course (some cleared areas were never used but they do show up on those early aerials and photos). What most don't seem to realize is Crump also had an active tree planting program. The use of trees in the design of PV was a very purposeful intention of his but it's probably true to say that his intention with the use of trees was never meant to actually effect a shot from a fairway, for instance. But he purposefully intended to use trees in the course's design---that was fairly unique for sure, but at the same time it's completely documented and should be something that's respected and preserved in the future. That does not mean the course did not get massively over-treed in the ensuing decades but those who are calling for the return to the exact look of those early photos simply do not understand the details of what that course was intended by Crump to be!

[Darren_Kilfara]

Brian,

Your point about the magazines being based in the US is a good one. I wish Golf World UK or one of the Australian magazines would put together a proper world top 100 instead of sticking to parochial rankings - the results probably wouldn't be any less biased than the US rankings, but they would be biased in a different direction, and in and of itself that might be instructive.

Cheers,
Darren

[TEPaul]

Darren:

Are you saying that the rest of the world doesn't have its bullshit magazine raters and rankers like we do?  

[Darren_Kilfara]

No, Tom - but I don't know of any *world* rankings produced by non-American publications. I disagree strongly with much of the Golf World UK rankings of the Top 100 in GB&I, but I'd be interested to see how a predominantly British panel of "experts" from GWUK might rank the Top 100 in the World, particularly to see how many GB&I courses are in it relative to e.g. the Golf magazine rankings in the States.

Cheers,
Darren

[TEPaul]

Darren:

Tell me the truth---do you see anyway in the world US courses like Sand Hills and PVGC could possibly stack up against the likes of TOC, Carnoustie, RCD and Portrush (or is it Port Rush?)?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

TE,
As an englishman now living here, I would reverse your question, can the courses you mentioned back in the UK stack up to the likes of PV and Merion for instance.
Tostart with the answer has to involve the qustion ...how do you really compare a links course to a non links course?
To me you really cannot, all the ranking lists try to put them all in there together..but how realistic is that.

I love links golf, but I cannot compare that style to my love of Merion and Pne Valley.
It is like asking, who do you love more your wife or your kids?

[Bob_Huntley]

No, Tom - but I don't know of any *world* rankings produced by non-American publications. I disagree strongly with much of the Golf World UK rankings of the Top 100 in GB&I, but I'd be interested to see how a predominantly British panel of "experts" from GWUK might rank the Top 100 in the World, particularly to see how many GB&I courses are in it relative to e.g. the Golf magazine rankings in the States.

Cheers,
Darren

Somewhere in my library, I have an article by Peter Dobreiner written for one of the English golf magazines giving his 100 best in the world, excluding the United States. As I have mentioned here before, ad nauseaum, my beloved Nchanga took 14th place.

If I can scan it and post I shall try... I am a bit of a klutz at this sort of thing.

[TEPaul]

Michael Wharton-Palmer:

In my question to Darren, I was trying to be a little ironical simply to see what he might say! Somewhere in the back of my mind rests some instincts of a nefarious lawyer. As hard as I try to stifle them they just pop out on their own sometimes.  

[TEPaul]

Bob Huntley:

Nchanga? Is that near the place you were when one of your officers explained to Princess Margaret that although the officers were white their privates were black? If you happened to see that I'd appreciate at least a brief description of Princess Margaret's reaction.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I guess we'll continue to disagree on this issue.

Crump may have wanted seperation but, I don't think he wanted total isolation.

Crump and his immediate followers had ample time to plant trees, but, if you look at photos of the golf course from the 30's, 40's 50's and even early 60's, it's evident that the extent of their plantings don't compare to what exists today.

The golf course has become choked off by taking Crump's desire for seperation to the extreme.

Brian Gracely,

If the ratings started today, as you indicate.

Pine Valley wouldn't be ranked at all.

It would take years for the raters to gain access and put forth the minimum number of ballots for consideration.

Pine Valley is a wonderful golf course.  A challenge at every hole.  Who cares what raters think ?

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

One of the key issues for PV is getting the tree issue under control. Frankly, the course has too much timber. Although it may be likely to return to its "original look" I'd much rather prefer PV closer to that than the vast number of trees that exist today.

Darren K:

It would be quite interesting to see the assessments of those from outside the USA rank the best courses in the world and see where a number of American course would eventually rank.

Maybe you should throw forward your own listing to kick the ball off?

[TEPaul]

Pat & Matt:

For the umpteenth time, the separation of holes by using trees to do it is what Geroge Crump wanted and intended to do and began to do before he died. That fact is completely documented!

However, when one looks at aerials from the earlier years of PVGC one sees many "clearing lines" and cleared areas that were done simply to test for holes that were not used or built. I can go through where those areas were if you'd like. That is the reason an early aerial should never be used as a guide for tree clearing on that course.

Crump intended visual isolation between holes, insisted on it actually (it was part of his plan before even routing or constructing) but you're right he never would've intended as many trees to encroach as were on that course in the last 4-5 decades. Ernie Ransome, particularly, really like trees and continued to plant more (even move a few around). But now they've removed some of those excessive trees from the hole corridors and are continuing to. But they surely won't do it at some pace recommended by Pat Mucci, Matt Ward or Tom Paul, they'll do it at their own pace like everything else they've ever done there.

The perfect prescription for tree removal on that course, in my opinion, would be if they got all the trees completely out of and out of, and out of the lines of all Crump's old bunkering amd constructed sandy waste areas. If they did that, and I believe they eventually will, you'd see a marked difference down there but the course would still have visual isolation between the holes as Crump intended it to be.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

The very fact the club IS REMOVING trees is an admission they have become a real annoyance and unnecessary addition to the course.

End of story.

P.S. IMHO -- they should simply sharpen the axe and cut plenty more! Whether they do that or not is their affair but I personally believe PV would be even greater without them.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom,

No, that was several hundred miles south, in Salisbury, Southern Rhodesia. Nchanga came after my military career.

Truth be told, she almost choked on her champagne. She had a wicked sense of humour but it wasn't much apparent at the time. She had been shipped out of Britain with the Queen Mother having fallen in love with Group-Captain Peter Townsend. Owing to his having been divorced (although in odd English parlance, he was the 'innocent party.') the Church of England and the Establishment were totally opposed to the union.

When Anthony Eden, then Prime Minister, advised her that if she decided to go ahead with the marriage, all perquisites of being a Royal would be withdrawn. She would become Mrs. Townsend, no titles, no houses, no freebies and not a cent from the Civil List. This latter meant no allowance. A  devasting blow which she decided was just too much. As an aside I remember the poor late, lamented Christina Onassis, who, in one of her strange, looking for a husband mode, married a Russian. She went to live with him in an apartment together with his Mother. It went well for a couple of months but when she went to the store to but a refrigerator, the salesman said,  "Fine, we'll deliver it in four years." She gave him a couple of tankers worth about six mill and got a divorce.

I am afraid Margaret was a bit of a sad case, she liked to lead a louche sort of life and be non-conformist, but woe betide anyone who treated her as anything but a Queen in waiting.

I must say she had the most wonderful bust and beautiful blue eyes.

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom,

I forgot to mention that I provided the reply, but it was not directly to Margaret. It was to  Lady Patricia Plunkett,a member of her entourage who provided the riposte. M. was standing nearby having a drink.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul:
The very fact the club IS REMOVING trees is an admission they have become a real annoyance and unnecessary addition to the course.
End of story."

Matt Ward:

Do you ever sometimes wonder why some golf courses, like a PVGC, get turned off by some criticism by people like you? It's because of statements like you just made.

I don't know that many who haven't said PVGC had too many trees, certainly no one on here. The point is were they going to remove trees and how many? They're never going to remove as many trees as it would take to return to the look of some of those early aerials because if you look at those early aerials you'd see the trees they planted on purpose that weren't anywhere near maturity. But the point is the have been removing trees in the last few years, and apparently intend to contiinue.

Guys like you criticize them for having too many trees and call for the removal of trees and then when they do that you start yelling in CAPTITAL LETTERS the fact that they ARE REMOVING trees PROVES they had too many in the first place.

Jeeesus Christ some critics can get annoyng!