New Zealand

[Jonathan Cummings]

I'm too lazy to search through previous threads.  What are the recommendations from the esteemed treehouse on other courses, besides Tom's, to play on New Zealand's North Island?  JC

[Mike Erdmann]

Paraparaumu Beach GC north of Wellington is the obvious first choice beyond Cape Kidnappers.  Links course that ranks in the world top 100.   Other great choices on the North Island would be MacKenzie's Titirangi in Auckland, Kauri Cliffs north of Auckland and Wairaki International in Taupo.  Courses aren't as good on the South Island, but Christchurch Golf Club is a good choice and Kelvin Heights in Queenstown is incredibly scenic.  Greens fees are really pretty inexpensive by our standards, except for the outrageous greens fees at Kauri Cliffs and Cape Kidnappers which are pushing $300 in US dollars.  Last time I was down there a couple years ago, Titirangi and Christchurch were about $60 US.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Jonathan,

If you go do take the camera and post the results on here - we really don't get to know much about the New Zealand courses here in the UK.  

Mike,

What is Auckland GC like?  I ask because it is still in the World Atlas of Golf, and without knowledge of what ought to replace it it will probably stay there.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark

Auckland Golf Club has hosted New Zealand Open's but it is far from being worthy of a place in the World Atlas.
It's a parkland course with few memorable holes and some really odd new work.
I assume both Kidnappers and Kauri Cliffs should be there.

The Australian section really needs work as well to reflect the best courses down here.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Mike - thanks, your info is helpful.

Mark - I'll take my digital camera but I'm about a 36 handicap with it.  Anything I take I'll send to Tommy who can be our visual editor.  

There are others in the Treehouse who will be there at Tom's gathering so I'm sure they'll be no shortage of pics.

JC

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Murawai, just northwest of Auckland,is intersting for its exposureto the wind and the black sand beach neat door.  I played priorthe installation of a new irrigationsustemthat theoretically will keep it from literally blowing away!  

Paraparam and waireki are well worth the trip.

[tonyt]

Titirangi no longer has much Doc on display. It was an underwhelming annual host of the Air New Zealand event through the mid to late 80s. Truth be told, Auckland is the North Island's golfing wasteland.

Cape Kidnappers
Paraparaumu Beach
Wairakei
Kauri Cliffs (expensive, but unbelievable site)

My smokies; New Plymouth and Kaitaia (far north true links) are a pair of charming courses that if Mark Rowlinson was a Kiwi, he'd have posted them in his series to many positive comments.

[Tom_Doak]

Jon:

If you go to Kauri Cliffs, definitely go to Kaitaia.

I haven't been there myself, unfortunately.  It's a very low-maintenance links near the south end of Ninety Mile Beach, about an hour from Kauri Cliffs.  Years ago I wrote in The Confidential Guide that I would give "brownie points" to anyone who ventured up to see it, and a couple of years later I got a letter demanding brownie points from ...

the esteemed founder of this site, Mr. Ran Morrissett.  That was the first I'd heard of him.  He said Kaitaia was very cool, but of course no one has been there to call him on it.

The coolest "off the beaten track" course I saw over there was a muni links down in Dunedin named Chisholm Park, but that's a long way from the others listed.  (It's about like telling you to check out Cabo del Sol while you're in California; except that a green fee at Cabo would probably buy you an annual pass at Chisholm Park.)

[Mark_Guiniven]

Here's Kaitaia.

[Mark_Guiniven]

Ngamoutu suffers from Lake Karrinyup syndrome in that the clubhouse is at the top of a steep hill, but it could be quite good with some tree clearing and a more consistent theme to it, which I guess typifies a lot of New Zealand designs. Aside from the par 3 14th, they haven't really developed the best land all that well either, but it's still worth a visit if you're in New Plymouth.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Brad Swanson and others - here's a really good website for planning trips to New Zealand.  It has an excellent drivetime calculator.  JC

http://www.newzealand.com/travel/

[Ash Towe]

Titirangi is undergoing an extensive restoration programme.  The club are using the good Dr's original plans.  It is taking a long time as they are doing 1/2 holes per year.
Despite the disruption the course is well worth a visit if you are in Auckland.

[tonyt]

He said Kaitaia was very cool, but of course no one has been there to call him on it.

ahem  

Though, I'm hardly needed to back Ran. Nevertheless, I'll take the brownie points if they are still on offer.

Kaitaia is lovely. And around $US10-12 for a game.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Played Cape Kidnappers 4 times this past week.  This is easily the most difficult golf course the Renaissance Men have designed.  In fact, the 15th hole (650/600yds blue/white) called Pirate's Plank is so difficult, I'd rather be walking the plank instead of playing this hole.  In my book this may be the hardest par 5 I have ever played in my life - and there are no forced carries on this hole!  The hole continually narrows with death right and death left.  There will be others from the treehouse who will post here about Kidnappers and about the Ren Cup tournament.  But of the 300 or so rounds played by the roughly 80 participants, about 1/4 of the scores recorded (my guess) on this hole were "X".  I played with the teaching pro from Meadow Brook, a .1 handicap and one of the Ren Men and we all had X on this hole!  The superintendent from Kauri Cliffs scored a 7 on 15 by hitting a 4 iron, 4 iron, then putting 5 times - with his first putt 250 yards from the green!!!  

The par three 6th hole aint far behind either - it's hard on steriods.

I loved Cape Kidnappers.  It is a collection of eighteen wonderful and incredibly varied holes.  It's just light years beyond my capability.

JC

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Given what you just said about the 15th & 6th holes -- are there other "death trap" type holes at Cape Kidnappers?

Can you place in some sort of listing where you would place the course? Is there more emphasis on difficulty and is fairness compromised in any significant way? Can the difficulty be overcome when playing the appropriate tees?

I know you loved the place but do you see people making judgements on the course unfairly because of their lack of command in executing shots when playing there?

Thanks ...

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jonathan,

For a quick flashback, here's 12-17, with #15 in the right
middle on the peninsula.  Don't miss the fairway!



And some of the front nine (5-7):




The guy putting from 250 got down in 5?  He needs to take
lessons from Neil Regan.

[SPDB]

Jonathan -
Is it the toughest course you've ever played?

Matt - Why do you assume it was the player's lack of command?

[Matt_Ward]

Scott:

I'm getting up there in age and failing eyesight -- can you put number above the holes in question so that I know just where things go?

SPDB:

When someone putts the ball from 250 yards away that tells me something about FEAR.

Jonathan said the course was beyond his capability and from what he described of other players it seems that was the case as well in certain instances like the 15th.

I just wonder since Jonathan said this was the "most difficult" course to come from the hands of Doak and company. Given the photographs I have to say that with any serious wind blowing the layout may be only suited for the most gifted of players. Again, that's just a wild guess on my part since I have not played the course thus far.

[SPDB]

So it would be the course then, not necessarily the player right?

In Scott's photos
#1
12 is to the extreme left (green end not included)
13 is a par 3 coming back, backed up against the chasm
14 plays across(?) chasm, you can see the road hole like green at the bottom of the screen.
15 then plays back toward the cliffs, with the chasm on its left.

#2
#5 moves from bottom left corner of screen to top center
#6 is par 3 across the chasm at the top (you can see the bridge connecting tee to green)
#7 then plays back down toward the bottom of the screen.

[Jay Cox]

14 looks like quite a hole - road hole strategy plus scenary.  Jonathan (or someone else who's played):  Does the strategy actually work on the ground?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matthew - you ask penetrating questions.  I'll take a stab at answering them from my point of view.  

CK is a windy place.  It blew steady and hard for most of my time there (one night the wind was reported on the news to have blown 140 km/hr while we slept).  I don't know how often you get calm days there but they have to be the vast exception to the norm.  The wind sure adds to the difficulty factor but is not the entire reason for CK's sternness

The accomplished golfer facing not too much wind can probably handle Kidnappers.  Those with even modestly higher handicaps will have problems.  Some wrong sides of the landing areas fall off to tall native grasses that are so dense the ball is gone - you don't even look for it.  The greens are complex, fast and undulating.  I say with great confidence that at this year's Renaissance Cup, the number of three putts beat out the number of one putts.  Doak loves the ground game and true to his form champions this aspect at CK.  He could have easily made forced carries up the guzoo but to Tom's (not to mention Bruce Hepner and Brian Schneider, who were resident for 7 months of the design and build) credit, he choose not to.  The terrifying danger is in the sidelines.  This place reminds me of Oahu's Koolau where a ball landing 1" into the crap is simply given last rights and written off.

No this is not the toughest course I have seen, but it's in the top 10-20.

No Matt this is not an issue of playing the right set of tees.  Any tees you choose will leave you with the landing area and green severity issues.

As an aside, I spent an evening drinking wine with 4 Aussies - one who is our very own Mr. Daley.  I don't know who know's this but this Aussie is a big guy who can hit the ball forever.  On the 15th hole where the rest of us were trying to find out what Gannet stole our ball Big Ball Daley went driver/5 iron into this 600+ yard nightmare!

Nicer guys you have never met.

More when I get back east.

(Tim and other, please weigh in with your thoughts).

JC  

[Jonathan Cummings]

I'm standing in line for brownie points.  Kaitaia is quirky, rich in contours, poorly conditioned to the point of distraction, and climbing on the inflation bandwagon - it's up to $25NZ, which you still deposit in an honor box.

I took a bunch of photos but reviewing them I've decided I was bragging when I said I was a 36 handicap shutter bug!  

JC

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Look forward to learning more about the course when you get back to the States.

One additional question -- how does the design philosophy of Pacific Dunes compare / contrast with Cape Kidnappers. Can Cape Kidnappers handle the vast number of people who might play a Pacific Dunes in a given day or is the course more geared towards a limited amount of players given all the inherent design features / dangers that are present.

One small question -- does the wind pattern at Cape Kidnappers follow any set pattern between the two major seasons of summer and winter -- you know, the way the wind blows at Pac Dunes the summer win comes out of the north / northwest and the winter wind is generally out of the other direction?

I looked at the Website and they detail the final two holes to some degree. Can you provide any more details -- they seem to be quite long.

Final question -- is recovery part of the mix -- or is there a high percentage of "either or" type golf that one usually encounters when playing in the desert southwest of the USA?

Adios and many thanks for your always detailed replies.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Mark,
I am not sure about your politics question. I assume Paraparaumu was dropped for its geographical location more than anything. The trip we will work with will be flying into Auckland and then working south and flying out of Wellington (after Paraparaumu, ofcourse).

I agree with John's statements and must really credit the Doak & Co. for the routing, which upon seeing the land makes the fact you can walk it incredible. It is so strikingly different than Barnbougle that I think the thoughts that they would be similar outposts is false.

The closing four holes are all bloody long holes and really help the yardage add up at the end. It is far more challenging than Pacific Dunes, which seems both a combination of the emphasis on driving and the sheer length.

[Tom_Doak]

Jon:  Thanks for your comments on Kidnappers.

I agree that the course is the hardest we've built, per the client's input; even from the middle tees there are a lot of places you can make X.  However, I don't think it's quite as hard as it presented itself during the Renaissance Cup.  Surely it can be windy there, but that was one of the windiest weeks I've spent up on the hill.

An interesting fact:  we had six scratch players at the Cup [including Michael Clayton and Greg Turner] and a bunch of single-digits, but with everyone playing from different tees, the best-ball match play competition [no handicaps other than tee position] was won by Jimmy Dunne and Mike Keiser - a 4 and a 12!  It was a GREAT match play venue.

PS  The final match ended on the sixteenth tee, when both opponents drove two balls out of play and conceded on the spot.