Are the Cuscowilla Bunkers Resort Eye Candy...

[JakaB]

Having played 36 holes and not finding one greenside bunker and only needing to carry two.....the question was posed to me..."Are the bunkers at Cuscowilla really just eye candy.."    Even the fringe was left high to prevent poor putts or chips from finding the bunkers.....even the most prominate bunker of all...the middle fairway on 5 is designated as a waste area....bunkers that look close are far and bunkers that look far are too close to matter..and....really....the two fairway bunkers I did find because of poor right side pushes didn't pose a problem because of flat surfaces and surprisingly low lips where it most mattered.   The bunkers at Cuscowilla were the most beautiful bunkers I had ever seen..from the outside looking in that is..

[Brent Hutto]

I wouldn't go so far as "eye candy". I think the purpose of many bunkers at Cuscowilla have more to do with affecting your depth perception or directing your visual line than they do with punishing a missed shot. IIRC, I hit into one fairway bunker, one greenside bunker and the aforementioned waste bunker on #5. Given my lack of accuracy and the number of bunkers on the course I'd expect over 36 holes to play at least a handful of shots out of greenside bunkers.

The one greenside bunker I was in is the one long and right of the third hole Sunday. I took an extra club because I was convinced the wind was going to make my normal shot come up short of the green and maybe in the water. I aimed at that bunker and bullseyed it (guess I should have taken the caddie's advice on the wind). The shot from the bunker landed just on the green, rolled past the hole and all the way off the front of the green into the rough. So it was obviously not the best place to miss because of the slope of the green but the bunker shot per se was trivial because there was no lip and the sand was firm with the ball sitting up well.

The one fairway bunker I played from was the right-hand one 50 yards short of the fifteenth green on Saturday (when the hole was right on the brow of the false front on the right side of the green). The high lip of the bunker just caught a thinly hit 5-wood approach shot which rolled back into the bunker in a good lie. The same high lip (four feet above the level of the ball) gave me basically no way to keep the ball on the green. I had to hit a lob wedge to clear the lip, I had to swing hard at it to reach the green, the resulting spin brought the ball all the way back off the green leaving me chipping from the fairway for my third shot resulting in a missed par putt.

My tee shot buried in a muddy spot in the waste bunker on the fifth hole Sunday. By the time the caddie and I found it, I dropped into another plugged lie nearby and failed to get my next shot out of the waste area (stupidly tried to use a pitching wedge and advance the ball) the rest of my group was already on the green. I just picked up since I wasn't participating in the match.

So basically, one plugged lie aside the bunkers were no more punitive than most and were considerably less hazardous than the deep-walled bunkers with soft, fluffy sand at my home course. No comparison visually, though. That is one heck of a gorgeous course and the red bunkers work with the brown native grass and green fairways to perfect effect (and don't even get me started on the amazing orange sunsets we had Saturday evening.

But there's more to the story than that. Both times I played the short twelfth hole I hit my tee shots right of the green and had to play short wedge shots over the righthand bunker that looks to be on the front of the green. In fact, there is over 15 yards of grass between that bunker and the front of the green (which is rolled up with a lip of fringe, BTW). On Saturday I hit what I thought was a perfect shot under a tree limb, over the bunker and about two yards too far to stay on the green. When I had a slightly shorter shot (with no tree limb) on Sunday I thought that the bunker set back from the green had messed with my depth perception so I paced off the yardage and played a low pitch shot to that number rather than by eyeball. I put it three feet from the hole and made the putt. Whatever other purpose that bunker serves, it is there in part to confuse your visualization on wedge approach shots while simultaneously providing  a little bit of closely-mown grass to use to bump the ball in when the hole is cut right on the front as it was on Sunday.

Other fairway bunkers serve to make strategic options off the tee require additional precision. On the seventeenth there's the first bunker on the right of the fairway that works with the bunker in front of the green to define an ideal angle of approach if you don't want to (or in my case can't) carry the bunker on the inside of the dogleg and don't want to (or in my case can't) carry the front bunker on the approach. You can take a club (driver in my case) that won't quite reach the little fairway bunker that's 160 yards from the green on the right side of the fairway and from all the way right but short of that bunker you have a perfect angle relative to the slope of the green to land a shot (in my case a 3-wood) near the front of the gren and have it stop before it runs off the back. If that bunker were not there you'd just choose the angle to aim the drive and try to keep it from running through the fairway. The bunker gives an aiming target as well as possibly keeping a ball hit on-line but too far from running into the tall native grass. For bigger hitters there's a bunker with similar purpose up about 300 yards off the tee on the right and it is big enough to keep the ball out of a brutal stand of native rough. Isn't this a classic usage of fairway bunkers as non-penal features designed to help rather than punish the golfer?

Barney, I think it's possible that you're conflating the decidely non-penal design of the holes with a lack of menace from the actual bunkers. I'd suggest there are both punishing and non-punishing bunkers at Cuscowilla (mostly the latter) as well as obvious routes for even us hackers to avoid the most punishing ones. There are manifestly some bunkers that you don't want to be in or at least certain lobes of certain bunkers that are a half-stroke or full-stroke penalty if you end up there (the far front lobe of the left-hand bunker on the short eleventh for example). I think it's good design to save those penalties for situations that you are given leeway to avoid while making the bunkers that are there for other purposes less threatening if you do have to hit shots out of them.

[Pete Lavallee]

The fairway bunker looked really scary but after finding a few it is the easiest bunker to hit out I've ever played; the ball comes out hot and I saw a few shots travel alot further than the player anticipated. Of course if you get under some of those lips the price can be high. I would definetly challange more in future rounds knowing this. The greenside bunkers proved much more difficult, as Jason said, judging the depth of sand and playing according seems the key; I would certainly steer clear of them in the future.

[JakaB]

I thought it was just me and we have Brent Hutto...a left handed 21 handicap finding only two bunkers and one waste area on 36 holes on a course that is known for its bunkers.....Pete Lavallee then says "the easiest bunker to hit out I've ever played"...lets look at the facts...

Bunkers seen but not found....eye candy
Bunkers easier to hit out of than the rough surrounds....eye candy
Bunkers more beautiful than any others....eye candy

If it looks like eye candy and smells like eye candy it must be......

[JakaB]

redanman,

I don't think the bunkers being eye candy are a bad thing anymore than I am bothered by a beautiful clubhouse or the ocean view at Torrey Pines.....The green sites were interesting enough to stand alone without a truly penal or strategic bunker system.....and it is a resort after all...

[blasbe1]

Bunkers seen but not found....eye candy
Bunkers easier to hit out of than the rough surrounds....eye candy
Bunkers more beautiful than any others....eye candy
If it looks like eye candy and smells like eye candy it must be......

John, why do I get the sense that this was a Socratic question . . . anyway, I'll bite.  I totally disagree with the eye candy comparison as follows (keep in mind this is not intended to be an exhaustive list, just a few examples that currently come to mind):

Fairway bunkers:  

# 1, it is menacing to look at and got in my head, I hooked three left in the junk and blocked one right.  When I blocked it, the pin was back right so I was forced to carry the greenside bunker to be aggresive or play for the front left portion of the green (more on that later).

#2, perfect risk reward bunker, assuming you on right portion of the fairway where most amateurs will be off the tee, the angle of the bunker in relation to the line of play is a great strategic element.  (Of course, from a down hill lie in the front left portion of that thing I hit it ten feet with the hickory mashie niblick, so it's got to be eye candy  ).

#6, the bunker right from the back tees was in the perfect bailout distance for me, first time I played the hole I blocked it right into the bunker and faced a very tough shot from under a lip.

#7, those tall green skinny ones are my favorite

#15, again from the back tee, the front left bunker is about 240-250 I believe, I pulled a tee ball to be safe from the trees/hazard right and was right in it, with a tough lip, got greedy, played 5 instead of 7 iron and cought the lip (but did get out).

#17, again from the back tee, right in the landing zone for a well struck drive that doesn't draw enough, from the front tee it's very much in play.

Greenside bunkers:

#1, perfectly placed to make a bailout drive to the wide open right side of the hole the much more difficult approach, especially with the pin we saw on Sat.

#2, I pulled my third left on Sat., had a tough shot but was able to play the bank up to the left and behind the front left pin position and rolled it back to a tap in.  The combo of that bunker design with that pin placement was about as much fun as I've ever had playing from a greenside bunker, and it was a tough shot, but if executed properly with a little imagination it was simply awesome.

#3, deftly placed to save you a few bucks on Pro-Vs.

#5, those flat green ones are my favorite    

#8, forces the player to the left when short right is the best place to be with a lot of pin positions, pretty good placement in my book.

#18, if you regularly get it up and down from those after hitting a less than perfect second you're better than most.  


 

[Brad Swanson]

Jaka,
   I thought the greenside bunkers were quite difficult to get up and down from, as I found 3 or 4 over the course of 2 rounds and only made one sandie.  

Would you have preferred every green be surrounded on all of sides by sand on every hole??  

What does "known for its bunkers mean"?  That's a pretty ambiguous statement.  Known for being what??

I personally saw a number of players struggle to hit good shots out of them, so in my experience, I would not say they were just eye candy.

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[blasbe1]

Redanman,

Love the new icon, while I know you're from PA I didn't take you for the alternative rock type.  Lightening Crashes still gives me goose bumps everytime I hear it.  Sweet!

JKB

[Brent Hutto]

Fairway bunkers:  

# 1, it is menacing to look at and got in my head, I hooked three left in the junk and blocked one right.  When I blocked it, the pin was back right so I was forced to carry the greenside bunker to be aggresive or play for the front left portion of the green (more on that later).

[snip]

Greenside bunkers:

#1, perfectly placed to make a bailout drive to the wide open right side of the hole the much more difficult approach, especially with the pin we saw on Sat.

One of the joys of being a bogey golfer is that I can play to the open front left of that green every single time, no matter where the pin, and be accused of playing smart rather than being chicken. If I ever get to be any good it's going to suck having to fire at all those flags tucked behind the eye candy.

[Brent Hutto]

I thought it was just me and we have Brent Hutto...a left handed 21 handicap finding only two bunkers and one waste area on 36 holes on a course that is known for its bunkers.....Pete Lavallee then says "the easiest bunker to hit out I've ever played"...lets look at the facts...

Hey, wait a minute. Maybe we're on to something here. The bunkers are Cuscowilla are the architectural and strategic opposite of the 200-yard forced carry. They seem to be totally avoidable by hackers but can be capable of punishing the occasional pin-seeking low marker. Good thing Mr. Schmidt didn't make the trip, he'd have been totally out of his element.

[JakaB]

Bunkers seen but not found....eye candy
Bunkers easier to hit out of than the rough surrounds....eye candy
Bunkers more beautiful than any others....eye candy
If it looks like eye candy and smells like eye candy it must be......

John, why do I get the sense that this was a Socratic question . . . anyway, I'll bite.  I totally disagree with the eye candy comparison as follows (keep in mind this is not intended to be an exhaustive list, just a few examples that currently come to mind):

Fairway bunkers:  

# 1, it is menacing to look at and got in my head, I hooked three left in the junk and blocked one right.  When I blocked it, the pin was back right so I was forced to carry the greenside bunker to be aggresive or play for the front left portion of the green (more on that later).

I felt this bunker was too easy to carry to be anything but eye candy for anyone who has played the course more than once....that being said I do like the open fairway to the right for a first swing of the day tee shot which brings the greenside bunker into play for a back pin....even though on Saturday I didn't have any trouble simply playing left of the pin and making par avoiding the bunker on purpose....the greenside bunker on number 1 is not eye candy and is one of two gb's I feel come into play on the course..

#2, perfect risk reward bunker, assuming you on right portion of the fairway where most amateurs will be off the tee, the angle of the bunker in relation to the line of play is a great strategic element.  (Of course, from a down hill lie in the front left portion of that thing I hit it ten feet with the hickory mashie niblick, so it's got to be eye candy  ).

Your hickory shot was one of the great shots of the outing...I think that was the same $7 club that almost holed one out for eagle on 4.....I'm a little bothered by that bunker in that I think it is a sucker play to go over the meat of it....the green is angled to accept a shot from the left side of the fairway which somewhat takes it out of play....note: I also hit if to ten feet on Saturday from that bunker during our first round....something about that clay is easier to hit out of than the rough nearby...

#6, the bunker right from the back tees was in the perfect bailout distance for me, first time I played the hole I blocked it right into the bunker and faced a very tough shot from under a lip.

I agree it is a perfect distance from the tee for me also...I remember thinking don't go in as I just skirted left..

#7, those tall green skinny ones are my favorite

I like those trees too and wouldn't change a thing...

#15, again from the back tee, the front left bunker is about 240-250 I believe, I pulled a tee ball to be safe from the trees/hazard right and was right in it, with a tough lip, got greedy, played 5 instead of 7 iron and cought the lip (but did get out).

That is interesting that you found that bunker...I hit a high not so bad shot that came up short and led me to believe that both left side bunkers were a bit too far out of play....I would be interested to know how far the second is...but I do submit that those are good bunkers on a tough hole with trouble right...


#17, again from the back tee, right in the landing zone for a well struck drive that doesn't draw enough, from the front tee it's very much in play.

That is the exact second fairway bunker that I found...

Greenside bunkers:

#1, perfectly placed to make a bailout drive to the wide open right side of the hole the much more difficult approach, especially with the pin we saw on Sat.

ditto..

#2, I pulled my third left on Sat., had a tough shot but was able to play the bank up to the left and behind the front left pin position and rolled it back to a tap in.  The combo of that bunker design with that pin placement was about as much fun as I've ever had playing from a greenside bunker, and it was a tough shot, but if executed properly with a little imagination it was simply awesome.

Didn't see those bunkers and can't see how anything but a really bad shot from up close or a really good shot from way out would ever find them..


#3, deftly placed to save you a few bucks on Pro-Vs.

I wish they would have saved money on the bunkers and built a walking bridge...a guy might even bounce a Pro-V over one...and really speed up play...


#5, those flat green ones are my favorite    

A great use of no bunkers....is that green really just #2 at Pinehurst #2...

#8, forces the player to the left when short right is the best place to be with a lot of pin positions, pretty good placement in my book.

I like the runup area to the left and thought it was so obvious that I didn't give the bunker any credit....so I could be wrong...


#18, if you regularly get it up and down from those after hitting a less than perfect second you're better than most.  

Did Crenshaw get called away and Nicklaus build that bunker....it was the worst on the course and I hit the green in regulation from the back tees so nothing personal...
 

[Brent Hutto]

If we're going to be able to rip Tom Fazio for his out of play eye candy bunkering, we'd better be able to state with certainty that the favored sons around here aren't guilty of the same thing....

I've never played a Fazio course and wouldn't want to rip him a new one even if I had but if he's built a course as fun to play as Cuscowilla then he's OK in my book.

Victoria National anyone?

[blasbe1]

Guys, let's drop the mandatory "C & C can do no wrong" mantra for a second, please.  If we're going to be able to rip Tom Fazio for his out of play eye candy bunkering, we'd better be able to state with certainty that the favored sons around here aren't guilty of the same thing....

Not that you've suggested this, but I would defend the bunkering there irrespective of who designed the course.  

Generally, I think it is a fundementally flawed assumption to think that:

1) bunkers must be gotten into regularly otherwise their placement is improper or somehow off; or  

2) that once in a bunker, anything short of a pitch out renders a bunker too easy and therefore lacking merit.  

Specifically, at Cuscowilla I've counted 52 bunkers from my yardage book, many of which are so prominent with alternative avenues (#1, #2, #5) that if a player of any skill tries to avoid them they likely will, however, a player is often rewarded by challenging them and that's the point (#5 is the perfect example, play away from the bunker and go right and the green is offset and shallow, attack the bunker and go left and the green opens to your line of play and slopes back to front).  

Because there's not a great many opportunities to get into bunkers to begin with, the pt. of how few bunkers a couple of players got into over 36 holes means very little IMO.

I think I was only in 3 or 4 green side bunkers during the matches but in all instances I had very difficult shots that required great imagination, ask Joe Perches or Pete B., #2 and #16 on Sat., # 9 on Sun.  I only saved par once and I'm a good bunker player in relation to my handicap.  Pete B. had a one legger on 17 on Sun. and hit a marvelous shot, one I'm sure he'll remeber, in fact as we walked up to the green he asked me "what the heck do I do with this one, stand on one leg?"  

John, I don't know about you but I scored well above my handicap at Cuscowilla, and while I can't say it was because I was in every bunker on the course, I can say that the bunkering was a factor.  

What was everyone elses' scoring experience in relation to their handicaps?  Given, many from the North may have been a little rusty, but I'll wager to a man most guys scored higher than normal, even for a first look course.  

If in fact that's the case, I submit that the bunkering is perfect, any more difficult and you'd have a practice in self punishment.  

What were peoples scoring experiences this weekend?  

     

   

[Brent Hutto]

According to my handicap and the course and slope ratings, I should expect to shoot 93 or better about one time in four at Cuscowilla from the middle tees or at Athens CC from the white tees (it just happens to work out that way).

My ESC scores were 103 on Saturday and 99 on Sunday. I'd class those scores as respectively abysmal and not too bad relative to my handicap. Caddie or not I don't think anyone's going to play particularly well their first time around Cuscowilla, even if they avoid every bunker on the course. Conversely, at Athens CC from the white tees my ESC score was 95 which means I played to within a couple scores of my index.

The course at Cuscowilla fascinates me and I enjoyed the entire experience of being there. But Athens CC is a course I could fall in love with. Just very friendly and comfortable with a wonderful golf course.

[Pete Lavallee]

I just want to emphasize that I said the fairway[/color] bunkers were easy to hit out, if you're not up against the lip, which can happen at least 20% of the time; so you have a 70% to 80% chance to recover.  Greenside[/color] bunkers gave me fits, I would not recommend anyone bailout in them.

[John_Conley]

All in all, did people like the course?  I thought Cuscowilla was terrific the one time I played it and can't wait to get back.  Unfortunately this past weekend wasn't a good time for me.

The feedback I've read makes me think it was well-received, but this thread is a little hard to interpret.

[Brent Hutto]

My impression was that everyone I talked to at least liked the course and thought it was well designed. I think opinions ranged from liking it to really, really liking it with at least one person going far beyond that point in his assessment of the property. All that is about the course itself.

Some of the logistics and amenities may have been more in the acceptable but not perfect range. Bill can probably give an organizer's perspective on those matter if he chooses. As for the accomodations, for my part they were excellent and fit my needs perfectly. Quiet, clean, the bed was comfortable and the showers were tall enough, had plenty of water pressure and never ran out of hot water. Plus I parked my car on Friday evening when I arrived and never touched it again until 4:00PM Saturday. I could walk back and forth to meals and to the golf course each day. For me that's a serious bonus on any golf trip. After unloading my stuff on Friday I walked out the door of my cabin and up the 18th fairway all the way to the clubhouse with the milky way fully visible overhead and just a whisper of a breeze in the pines. I was hooked instantly and it only got better from that point on.

[JakaB]

John, I don't know about you but I scored well above my handicap at Cuscowilla, and while I can't say it was because I was in every bunker on the course, I can say that the bunkering was a factor.  

What was everyone elses' scoring experience in relation to their handicaps?  Given, many from the North may have been a little rusty, but I'll wager to a man most guys scored higher than normal, even for a first look course.  

If in fact that's the case, I submit that the bunkering is perfect, any more difficult and you'd have a practice in self punishment.  

What were peoples scoring experiences this weekend?  

Jason,

I don't understand the handicap thing....I've been a 5 index most of they year but only seem to shoot 5 over on my very best days.....so considering that I beat a superior player of great length and deft touch around the greens 3&2 in singles I feel that I did play to my handicap.....I think that is great and believe you made a very wise investment in joining the club.....the greensites alone should provide for enjoyment thoughout the rest of your life.....congrats....like a guy young, thin and connected needs any kudos from me...

[Brent Hutto]

A 5-index player would expect to shoot 76 or better from the middle tees at Cuscowilla one out of four rounds, that's six over par on your best days. From the back tees it would be 78 or better (eight over) one time in four.

At Victoria National, from the Ayrshire tees (6,400 yards) your one time in four round would be 78 or better which is six over par and from the Tecumseh tees (6,800 yards) it would be 80 or better (eight over).

So at either of the fairly difficult courses you're correct. Playing off an honest index of five you're only going to shoot five over by playing close to your best golf.

[Note bene: These estimates are for ESC adjusted scores]

[blasbe1]

Jason,

....like a guy young, thin and connected needs any kudos from me...

Thanks very much, but you forgot incredibly good looking and only slightly balding  and how in the world did you ever guess that I'm half Italian (seriously I am) but connected is beyond a stretch.  

 

[Dale_McCallon]

My two cents worth about the waste bunker on 5...I agree that the shot is quite playable, but the neat thing about for me was the depth perception problem I got from being down there.  I found a great lie in the bunker on Sunday and only had 75 yards approx, but from down there you feel like you have to give it a little extra to make sure you clear the lip--next thing you know you are long with a very difficult chip.  Maybe from a lack of experience from playing such shots, but the depth of the bunker really messed with my mind.

[JakaB]

Dale,

Why did you end up in the waste bunker on Sunday....were you going for the left fairway or did you just hit left of your target......I do have to give huge kudos for the strategic nature of that hole depending on pin placement.....Saturday it was left fairway all the way and Sunday it was right fairway as best....

I think calling that a waste bunker is somewhat of a concession to slow play and how big of a bitch it would be to rake.....Even in a waste bunker you would think players would not just leave deep stomp prints or that it might get a quick rake by the grounds crew before the weekend.....and then how do you know what is a waste bunker or a regular bunker without asking a caddie.....one or the other I say and at least brush you mess with your feet or club if you can't find a rake..

[John_Cullum]

JBK

That's a good theory about the waste area on 5, but I think being a waste area makes it tougher to play. My tee shot on sat. was in a terrible lie in some sort of hole. If it were maintained as a bunker, that hole probably wouldn't have been there. As it was I did well to chunk it out.

I found 6 bunkers over 36 holes, plus 1 trip to the waste area. So I wont agree "they" are eye candy, but there are some bunkers like those on the left side of 6 that definitely are eye candy, or designed to be a menace to hackers.

[JakaB]

Sarge,

It was your shot that I remember now being in something that seemed irregular to the extreme....Was there any indication on the card or rules sheet what was a waste bunker and what wasn't....or was it just word of mouth.   I hate to look like someone who complains about fairness but your lie looked more like a result of blantant rudeness of an inconsiderate golfer than an architectural feature...

[Brent Hutto]

Dale,

Why did you end up in the waste bunker on Sunday....were you going for the left fairway or did you just hit left of your target......I do have to give huge kudos for the strategic nature of that hole depending on pin placement.....Saturday it was left fairway all the way and Sunday it was right fairway as best....

Out of five players in the group, Dale and I both ended up in the bunker and someone, must have been the Mayor, ended up in the left fairway. Not a single soul among us was aiming anywhere near that far left. There were just some bad golf swings happening along about that time in the round.

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