Wind - who does it more affect?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

This is not a dietary question.  It arises from a recent thread about the sea.  I have a 15 handicap at a links course and I reckon that the wind, when it is up on such a course, makes the gap between a 10-handicapper and me much greater than five strokes.  A scratch golfer would probably beat me by maybe 30 strokes in a stiff wind.  I would also reckon that the difference between a 20-handicapper and me in a similar wind is considerably more than 5 strokes.  I put most of this down to my own lousy technique - a sliced shot slices far more into the wind etc.  But is there more to it than this?  At my home, windy (sometimes VERY) links course the good (ca scratch) players seemed to find a new gear for the wind.  I can recall one of our better players in the match ahead electing to hit a 2-iron directly into a gale-force wind on a very exposed 460-yard par 4 because the iron apparently gives a more penetrating flight than a wood.  He got on in two with a similar iron for his second.  Using a driver from the tee I got up there in 4 shots.  Does this make links courses particularly devisive?

[Joe Hancock]

I think the wind helps define what constitutes a "better" player. A better player will be one who has learned more shot making techniques, not neccesarily one who is a better ball striker. When the wind blows, creativity, experience and talent all rise to the top as a package deal. To answer your question, or observation, I believe it does seperate the levels of talent moreso than any other challenge.

Dietarily yours,

Joe

[Bob_Huntley]

  Re:Wind - who does it more affect?
« Reply #1 on: Today at 01:51:46pm »    

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I think the wind helps define what constitutes a "better" player. A better player will be one who has learned more shot making techniques, not neccesarily one who is a better ball striker.  



I am inclined to agree here. I played with Chi Chi Rodriguez in the Mauna Kea Tournament back in 1966 and found I was as long downwind, but very much shorter into a headwind. He had  low slinging ball flight with a pronounced draw and was able to pound it a long way.

[cary lichtenstein]

Tee it lower, choke down on the grip, and rip it. It works.

[Doug Siebert]

Mark,

I think a lot of it is because the more solid you hit the ball, the less the wind will affect it, and the better you are, the more solid you hit it more often.  Shotmaking and experience also play into this as well, but that's more likely to be a factor in the UK due to the courses you'll find there.

[ForkaB]

The new balls with less spin are making trajectory increasingly irrelevant.  I played a match on Sunday in a 2 club wind against a good player who hit the ball high, and the wind hardly affected his distance.

[Mike_Trenham]

All things equal (aka handicap or scoring average) the golfer with the better short game is the better player in the wind.  Players with better short games can cope when they miss greens which is more likely in the wind.  This is why the Open Championship and Masters have so many champions known to cope well when they miss a green or fairway on occasion (Seve, Daly, Palmer, Norman, Watson, Floyd, Crenshaw, Jose).  The US Open and PGA are more about ball striking and not making mistakes under pressure while the Open and Masters are more about playing well in the wind which puts pressure on the short game.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Trenham,

Your logic escapes me.

How does having a better short game translate to being a better wind player ?  Is not one independent of the other ?

Would you say that playing at Shinnecock in June has more to do with the wind then playing at ANGC in April ?

What wind is there at ANGC ?

How does it compare to the wind at Bethpage, Pebble Beach, Olympic and Shinnecock ?

[Doug Siebert]

Rich,

I find that is ABSOLUTELY true off the driver.  It was the first thing I noticed about the Pro V1 when I first switched, I think the second time I was out I was hitting into a 25-30 mph wind at home I found I was getting further down the fairway than I would have expected for that wind, but it was even more noticeable that the ball just held its line amazingly well.

When I was in Ireland this summer I didn't even bother to try to keep the ball down in the wind, even playing into the teeth of a 40-50 mph at times.  OK, I did tee the ball a bit lower than normal because otherwise I got zero roll even on those rock hard fairways, but I was still getting it up there to maybe 50-60 feet at the apex and not worrying about trying to hit one of those headhunter balls that roll 100 yards the locals have learned over the years.

I actually have a harder time dealing with really severe crosswinds because I'll allow for the movement of the ball due to the wind but if I caught it perfectly square (hard to do when the wind's doing its best to blow you over during your swing, but sometimes it happened by accident) the damn thing would be hardly affected at all, and I'd find myself in the rough I was aiming at!

With the irons, I still find the wind is a serious problem, and one modern equipment has much less of an answer for, requiring my tried and true 3/4 swing punchball with low lofted clubs and running the ball everywhere type of game I'd learned on previous visits.  But then like Shivas, I'm a handsy picker as opposed to a trapper.  Only way I can hit a full shot with a really low trajectory, even with a 1 iron, is to just thin the hell out of the thing

[Forrest Richardson]

Answer: The downwind player in a group who has just consumed 2-3 bratwursts each.

[Ted Kramer]

Wind makes a course play tougher.
Better players will generally fair better on harder courses than high markers will.

Wind is certailny tougher on a less skilled player.
Most high handis who I play with have a tough time fighting a slice off of the tee . . .that is certainly not the shot of choice into a stiff wind.

-Ted

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Ted,

I recognise that scenario.  I do!

[Ted Kramer]

Interestingly enough I can actually make an arguement that wind can actually "equal out" some differences in ability.

Here is my best example. . . .

I grew up on Long Island playing a ton of golf at Lido, a muni course right out on the open water. My golf addict buddies and I played golf year round on that course. There were some winter days, and I'm talking real December-February winter, where the wind was absolutely howling. On days when the wind is blowing so hard that its tough to walk into the wind, let alone hit shots into the wind, playing levels kind of "even out".

A good friend of mine plays to scratch and I won my fair share of those winter matches playing straight up (I'm an 8 and don't take strokes). The wind and weather almost turned golf into a different sport than either of us knew. The greens were frozen solid and the winds were outrageous . . .a lot of people might think that it is absurd to play golf in those conditions, and while I'll agree that it's definitely not for everyone, I wouldn't trade the memories of those rounds for anything.

A 20 mph wind is going exagerate the differences between good and lesser players, while a howling wind can certainly play a role in "evening out the playing field".

-Ted

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

It's all ball striking abilitiy.  I probably play The Ocean Course between 25 and 30 times a year.  I've played with some very good players in all sorts of conditions with all sorts of results, none were very good.  Then I saw the pros during the World Cup last year.  Even into a 25 mph wind (gusting to 40 mph) that first day, I never saw Fuyrk or Leonard anything less than pin high all day.  Those boys know their games...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I am fortunate enough to spend a fair amount of time at the Mike testing facility in Ft Worth, and I can tell you that the general feeling amongst the tour pros,  is that the combination of ball and driver now makes the wind almost obsolete as far as tee shots go.

Where as back in the day, you would tee it up lower into the wind, that is no longer the case, just rip it !!

The pros also say that what used to be a two club wind is now only a one club wind.

The last time I was down there, we did a test with old balata versus current balls and saw that this indeed was a very true statement.
The wind simply does not have as much effect as it used to.

Now of course this is from a differnet perspective than most of us experience !!!

I have to agree with Mark, that the better the player, the better the quality of ball striking and the easier it is to play in the wind.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I am sorry that should read NIKE facility

[Mike_Trenham]

Mike Trenham,

Your logic escapes me.

How does having a better short game translate to being a better wind player ?  Is not one independent of the other ?

Take Tom Purtzer and Ben Crenshaw 15 years ago, my pick would be Crenshaw in the wind as he would on average miss more greens per round.  With excessive wind everyone will miss greens or hit it to the wrong portion of a green more often.  This is where the short game comes in and provides an advantage to Crenshaw.  Crenshaw's strenght was not only his putting but his wedge game which was often forgotten, miss a green pitch it to 5 feet every time and make the putt and think your putting won the event.

Would you say that playing at Shinnecock in June has more to do with the wind then playing at ANGC in April ?

Yes but Shinnecock is not the typical wind free US Open venue.  And many of the contenders at the last three Opens at Shinnecock all had top notch short games.  See Mickelson, Floyd, Norman, Pavin etc.

What wind is there at ANGC ?

Well they seem to talk about the swirling wind a lot on CBS but may be it is safer than commenting on the the conditioning.

How does it compare to the wind at Bethpage, Pebble Beach, Olympic and Shinnecock ?

Oh yeah Pebble Beach another Open venue where there was a ton of wind and the winners had great short games.  2000 is not a fair comparison I will stick to semi-mortal performances, 1992 maybe the worst conditions for a final US Open round ever and the winner Tom Kite had the best wedge game on tour, Tom Watson in 1982 probably would be similarly rated.  All I can remember from Bethpage is the rain soaked conditions it may have been windy but I did not follow this event closely.

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