Is the architecture of Cuscowilla that much better than at Friars Head...

[JakaB]

Andy,

I guess you havn't been around long enough to see Huck go off...it ain't pretty as seen by this little ditty that can be found on the course comments for Chicago Golf....

Tom Huckaby
  posted September 29, 2000 09:32 AM            
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OK, this gives me a chance to voice a question that's been nagging me for some time, and maybe burying it here will help me avoid the lynching I might otherwise receive...
But...

How much should one's welcome and experience factor into one's assessment of a course?

I ask this because contrary to my friend Evan, when I played Chicago GC, I have never felt so much like dirt. I was there as a guest of a member and I have never been assuaulted with so many things I couldn't do, so many prohibitions, so many admonitions, so much bullshit. So while Chicago GC is obviously an architectural marvel and a piece worthy of study, I don't hold in in my top 100 courses I've played (or wouldn't if I ever stopped to make such a ranking, which I haven't). The feeling I got there was just so damn cold and unfriendly, I just don't have the nature to be that objective. I doubt Mother Theresa would if she got the treatment I did!

On the other side, we have Ballyliffin, which as you might have seen in my Ireland thread I rate VERY high, obviously being heavily influenced by the fantastic welcome and friendly treatment I received there. So I's sit here and say with strong conviction that I liked Ballyliffing a LOT more than Chicago GC, and for me, that means the former is a better course, period.

So my question is this: for those of us outside the business, what is wrong with factoring in "external" matters such as this into one's assessment of a course? For anyone outside the course building business and maybe also excluding those who play competitive golf, our goal in the game would have to be to have fun - why else play? And if this is the goal, shouldn't courses be rated on such basis? Following along with this, shitty treatment takes away from the fun, and thus I'd never rate Chicago GC all that high.

I suppose one can also take this from another side, and thus competitive golfers might rate courses on how they test one's game... or others might rate them on many other factors. On that basis, I guess treatment and welcome wouldn't matter. And obviously if one rates a course based simply on architectural merit, this is meaningless too. But who is qualified to make such an assessment beyond those who actually build courses? I sure as hell am not and make no pretenses to be so... Thus for me, external things always DO matter.

It's for this reason that I rarely get involved in course discussions here or on other sites... I feel as if I am just daft or something because these things matter to me.

But after my Ireland trip, I'm starting to feel that maybe I have it right and the rest of the golf world is wrong!

Any thoughts?

TH
 

[THuckaby2]

Holy Moley... on the one hand, I sure have come a long way from "It's for this reason that I rarely get involved in course discussions here or on other sites"....  

On the other, I feel pretty good that I haven't waivered from the sentiments I expressed 4 years ago.  I still do think architecture is best assessed by architects and others in the business, and golf courses mean a lot more than that, when assessed by golfers.

I tend to make this point 3 or 4 times a year.  That 9/2000 post is I believe the first time I sprung it on this group.  I got no support then, haven't since then, don't expect much now.

 

[Brent Hutto]

It has a really good looking short par 4 (5th), a very long par 3 (8th) a ridiculously long par 5 (13th?). A couple shorter par 4's, a short 3, and demanding long 4's to finish both sides.

In my humble opinion, this factor alone is worth a strong commendation for Coore/Crenshaw. It's amazing how many courses you can play where three of the one-shotters use the same club off the tee, all of the Par 4's are give or take two clubs from 400 yards and the long holes are mostly designed to be played with a 275-yard drive and a long iron. Having multiple in-betweener holes is the part of Cuscowilla I'm most looking forward to (especially the short Par 4's, natch). Plus the orange bunkers are cool.

[Andy Hughes]

John
Nope, that predates my stumbling in here. Mighty strong language for TomH, though I notice that even at his most acerbic, his angriest and most upset, the course was still a 'marvel'.  
Andy

[A.G._Crockett]

One guy above spoke of the strategy of Cuscowilla.....do you really think that at 6,800 yds and in November I will do much more than aim for the middle of the fairway and hit driver as hard and high as possible....I'm struggling to get an interesting thread started on the place....

John Kavanaugh,
The first part of the quote above would apply equally well to the way most people would play ANGC (which is a somewhat similar piece of land as Cuscowilla) I think.  The beauty of Cuscowilla is that you have to hit approach shots from the proper side of the fairway to have a decent shot at the pin, and so forth.  Indeed, on most of the course, you will be able to whale away with your driver; you may find it difficult to make par, though, no matter how close you are.

I wouldn't worry too much about the November part; we haven't had a frost yet in GA, and it is 82 here today.  It won't be that warm this weekend, but the bermuda is still green, the rough is sitll up, and the greens should be pretty slick.  Shouldn't be much different from July, actually.

The second part of the quote simply reflects the strong NE US knowledge base of this website's patrons, IMHO.  Much, much less is known here about most courses in the South, with a few exceptions.  (Notice I said knowledge base, NOT bias!)

I hope you aren't disappointed by Cuscowilla; I love the golf course.  From pictures, I'm pretty sure that Friar's Head would knock me over, as well.  I am a little surprised that you are bashing a golf course that you not only haven't seen, but are coming to play (at some expense!) later this week.  

[JakaB]

AG,

If Cuscowilla has the elevation change of Augusta...I be riding in a cart and very very happy.....The worst thing I have said about Cuscowilla in my mind is that it would be a better fit around 25 in relation to Friars being at 5....this is simply an analysis of the rating process and not the courses.   You need to understand that I have absolutely no doubt in my own mind that there are approximately 500 great courses in this country....and I'm positive I will see at least two of them this weekend...

[THuckaby2]

John
Nope, that predates my stumbling in here. Mighty strong language for TomH, though I notice that even at his most acerbic, his angriest and most upset, the course was still a 'marvel'.  
Andy

Andy, you have me nailed.  Just one thing:  I called it an "architectural marvel" and I believed then, and still believe now, that it is such.

That's just not much of a compliment in my book, as I truly don't care that much about pure "architecture" nor do I feel qualified to assess such.

So the place remains a worthless piece of shit golf club for how they treated me that day.  As a course, I'm always going to prefer Ballyliffin.  And I played the Glashedy course there, seen as the lesser of their two courses by the great majority of participants here.  Ask me which course is "better" between Chicago GC and Ballyliffin Glashedy and I'll take to my grave, or until I return to Chicago GC and get treated like a human, the superiority of the Irish course.

TH

[Andy Hughes]

So the place remains a worthless piece of shit golf club for how they treated me that day.  As a course, I'm always going to prefer Ballyliffin.  And I played the Glashedy course there, seen as the lesser of their two courses by the great majority of participants here.  Ask me which course is "better" between Chicago GC and Ballyliffin Glashedy and I'll take to my grave, or until I return to Chicago GC and get treated like a human, the superiority of the Irish course.

Understandable.  The quality of the course is just one component of the entire experience.
But I will still hold on to my impression of you as a 'silver lining' kind of guy until proven wrong.

[THuckaby2]

So the place remains a worthless piece of shit golf club for how they treated me that day.  As a course, I'm always going to prefer Ballyliffin.  And I played the Glashedy course there, seen as the lesser of their two courses by the great majority of participants here.  Ask me which course is "better" between Chicago GC and Ballyliffin Glashedy and I'll take to my grave, or until I return to Chicago GC and get treated like a human, the superiority of the Irish course.

Understandable.  The quality of the course is just one component of the entire experience.
But I will still hold on to my impression of you as a 'silver lining' kind of guy until proven wrong.

Oh I am that, without a shadow of a doubt.

So I fully expect to LOVE Cuscowilla.

 

[John_Cullum]

So the place remains a worthless piece of shit golf club for how they treated me that day....
TH

Finally , a rating system I can relate to.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I have played Cuscowilla five times so far and have to agree with John's retorical question...I cannot put my hand on my heart and agree that it is the 13th best course built since 1960..at least that was my first thought...
Then I started to really think about it, and there are not that many 'GREAT' courses that have been built since then anyway.
My only personal critisism of Cuscowilla is the severity of some of the putting surfaces...but I understand that is part and parcel of Crenshaw's design plan...

I know that you will all have a great time, the food is marvelous, the staff fantastic, and the golf course is a lot of fun..happy putting !!

[THuckaby2]

So the place remains a worthless piece of shit golf club for how they treated me that day....
TH

Finally , a rating system I can relate to.

Well John, just in the interest of full disclosure and so as not to give the wrong idea, note that I was not a course rater for any magazine at the time I played Chicago GC or posted these comments on GCA.com, nor have I ever submitted a rating for this course.  When it comes to magazine ratings, one follows the rules the panel puts forth, and how one is treated has no relevance.  One answers the questions put forth, gives the ratings on the scale required.  If I did that, I'd guess I'd come up with a series of pretty high ratings for Chicago GC.  It's not difficult to separate this from one's emotional feelings about a golf course or club.

But ask me as a golfer how I liked Chicago GC, and well... the answer is not very much.

And THAT is what I feel should matter.... far more than any magazine rating or ranking.

TH

[John_Cullum]

I just like the idea of categorizing a place as "worthless piece of shit golf course." It's very descriptive and avoids all of those esoteric niceties, and it might even be better than a number between 1 and 10.

By the way. I would put Ocean Forest in the wpos category, for similar reasons, although it is not a marvel either.

[Jim Franklin]

Huck -

Shadow Creek or Chicago Golf Club?

[A.G._Crockett]

Michael Wharton-Palmer,
Would you agree that the subtlety of Cuscowilla is what sets the course apart?  In order to deal with the putting surfaces and score well, you have to approach from the correct angles in many, many cases.  It is NOT a penal course off the tee, and is therefore enjoyable for all levels of golfers, but the greens are very demanding.

I will say that if you are coming to Cuscowilla looking to be knocked out by great visuals, you WILL be disappointed.  It is just not an especially stunning place.  Central GA in general isn't especially pretty.  It is, however, a great golf course in the same way that great courses from the "Golden Era" achieve that status.

In short, you won't stand on many tees and be stunned by the natural beauty in front of you (low WOW factor), but you will stand on many greens and look back at great holes that you want to play again.  In that sense, I would imagine that Cuscowilla and Friar's Head are similar and comparable.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

What are some other opinions about Chicago GC?
I played it in the late 80's and to be quite honest, wondered what all the rave reviews were about.
I can think of a multitude of similar terain golf courses in Britain that are superior in quality from that found in Wheaton.

However, I have always assumed I was just missing something, as I was a young whippersnapper at the time.
We cannot all like the same courses, I guess I just did not get it !!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

A.G.
I would agree with you 100%, it is indeed generous off the tee, and does lack the beauty of perhaps a more "intersting" site.
There are some great holes though, the short par 4 on the front side ..around 4 or 5..is simply marvelous..golf architecture at its very best.....

I like the course very much, and look forward to returning during Masters week in April.

[THuckaby2]

John C - that does give a certain clarity and finality, huh?

Jim L - now isn't that the perfect comparison... one course I am absolutely pre-disposed to love based on treatment v. another I am absolutely pre-disposed to hate.  I'd be an automoton if I preferred the latter.  So I believe you know where I fall there.  

[Mike_Young]

With all else being close.  Architecture in sand beats architecture in red clay everytime.
Mike

[A.G._Crockett]

With all else being close.  Architecture in sand beats architecture in red clay everytime.
Mike

Agreed.

[BCrosby]

With all else being close.  Architecture in sand beats architecture in red clay everytime.
Mike

Unless you are a very good architect who knows how to deal with clay.  

[Gene Greco]

   Those attending the Cuscowilla get together are in for an architectural treat as I say it is one of the twenty best golf courses built in the last 44 years. The golf course has been described accurately by Mr. Crockett and will reveal its genius over the few times you will play it this weekend. The organizer of this GCA meeting (Mr. McBride?) has selected a course which I am confident will stand up to the scrutiny of even the biggest crumudgeons on this website.

Furthermore, the people at GolfWeek have it ranked in an acceptable manner. Could even be slightly higher depending on taste, its that good.

As far as its comparison with Friar's, well, that's not possible. You see, Friar's is one of the three best courses built in modern times and is without question top 15 in the USA. It has every type of strategic hole Cuscowilla has but they're built on a grander scale, many which take your breath away.

Friar's is a most majestic golf course.

"Friar's is one of the most elegant presentations of golf course architecture in this world." -  my quote the first time I was escorted around the course.

[JakaB]

Come on Gene....with C&C having built 2 of the top three courses in the last 44 years....who gets the other nod in your book..

[Gene Greco]

Mr. Doak's work at Pacific Dunes is as good as golf gets.

[JakaB]

Gene,

Thanks...predictable but solid..