Perry Maxwellism

[TEPaul]

It seems to me every time I talk to any of the cognesenti in the profession and in the more classical old style side of architectural philosophy the name Perry Maxwell and his greens are the objects of ultimate respect.

We have 4-5 Maxwell redesigned greens at my course, GMGC, and for years most everyone has respected those greens the most, although noone knew who created them (they may have thought it was Ross). I call that passing the blind taste test with flying colors.

Coore and Crenshaw, Gil Hanse, a ton of supers, and the other day spending the day with Jim Urbina---the admiration for Perry Maxwell and his sometimes subtle but immensely effective greens in playabilty is just remarkable.

Maxwell did a ton of green redesigns all over the place and those that admire him so much like to make a game out of picking his greens out on courses of other architects when they don't know which ones they are.

I've felt for about 5-6 years that Maxwell just may have been the very best green designer there ever was---particularly in how the internal features of the green surface is treated. It's a bit hard sometimes to slap a truly defining characteristic to them though. It seems to me he had a bit of a modus operandi depending on the overall size of a green--eg large ones he got into the real "Maxwell Rolls" but with much smaller ones he seemed to forego the little subtle mounds and bumps (Coore called them "poofs") and got into some really beautiful little curving ridges and tiers that just diminish out so beautifully at their ends and maybe imperceptibly flip up the other way (Urbina said for efficient drainage flow and such that certainly effects interesting breaks.

And then there's the mysterious question about Maxwell's so-called "Forgotten Man" who apparently went everywhere with him and actually built what Perry created in design (sometimes perhaps alone when Perry would SECRETLY spend the day hanging out at something like the Philadelphia Orchestra!)

Jim Urbina said he thinks the "Forgotten Man" was actually two guys---the Wood brothers, probably former farmers from the Mid-west and perhaps related to Maxwell. I beleive he said he thinks they may not have even staked out or shot the grades on most of these greens, perhaps just did it all by eye.

But there's no question in my mind that Maxwell greens are the best I've ever seen--both in play and for the look of their green surfaces.

There's good news and bad new here, I think. Maxwell greens can be complicated to play at these higher green speeds today because there's so much subtle stuff going on in them causing all kinds of nauncy little movements of the ball and because of that their subtle rolls and contours can be in danger of the softening syndrome on some courses. At 10.5 to 11 on the stimpmeter our Maxwell greens are right on the edge in playability---believe me I know.

Are you out there Chris Clouser?

[BCrosby]

I have never been a big fan of Maxwell's macro architecture. He built too many green surrounds with 2-4-8-10 o'clock bunkering for my tastes. I've never been a big fan of his macro changes at ANGC either.

But there is no denying his genius when it came to putting surfaces. The green on no. 7 at ANGC is a great example. Very subtle, unpredictable contouring that is hard to appreciate on TV. A ten foot putt anywhere on that green may be the most challenging and interesting ten foot putt in golf.

Part of the fascination with Maxwell's greens is how well he hides his drainage schemes. They are not obvious and don't give you any easy clues as to breaks.  I've wondered sometinmes whether Maxwell might have consciously built fake drainage pathways just to mess with the golfer's head. They mess with mine.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Bob:

You've got an interesting point there about some of the surrounds of Maxwell greens--the bunkering patterns and such. I feel Maxwell sometimes worked off his own basic tempalates that way both in bunkering schemes and the internal surfaces of his greens. I think he reused those basic templates, particularly on his smaller greens but he probably tried to hide the template by bascially just flipping things around.

We're not completely sure of it yet but we think Philly C.C's greens may be a very interesting set this way as it's possible that Maxwell redid up to 17 of Flynn's green surfaces internally but basically worked them off of Flynn's green surround forms and his bunkering! If that's true it would be a pretty unique combination as a whole set of greens. But if Maxwell actually changed Flynn's old internal contours, or all of them, he was pretty subtle about it---as most of them don't look that much like Maxwell's basic internal style to me although some sure do---and those ones sure don't look like much of anything Flynn ever did on his surfaces. Flynn was always way more flowing with his internal surface movement than what Maxwell was known for.

[BCrosby]

"Flynn was always way more flowing with his internal surface movement than what Maxwell was known for."

Your sentence above gets at something I've wondered about for a while. Lots of architects are good at building large surface features on greens. Slopes, swales, run-offs, false fronts, etc. are all design staples and done by everyone.

What I found unique about Maxwell's greens (in my very limited sampling) is how well he uses micro-contours, really tiny features. Those are hard to build without making putting goofy. But Maxwell does it somehow. His little features fit into an overall scheme that removes what would otherwise feel like arbitrary little mounds and dips.

Most contouring that has you putt from one level to another level. Maxwell has you putt from one level, to a little mezzanine level, then to the next level.

Does that make sense?

Bob    

[TEPaul]

"Does that make sense?"

Bob:

It sure does. You put that really well. I don't know how exactly he did what he did, whether he visualized it first, drew it or just got going in the field and came up with it but he did it very well.

[Tony Petersen]

  A great example of Maxwell greens can be found at the Hiwan Golf Club in Evergreen, CO. Beyond the effect of Perry Peak and the foothills, even Phil M. agrees that they are the toughest greens he has ever putted. Played their for the first time this summer and shot a 96. Two weeks later shot a 77. You have to see (and put on) them to believe it You see 2 feet break to the right, it breaks 20 feet to the left. Typically run about 11-13 in speed. Fun, Fun, Fun

[wsmorrison]

"It is fairly obvious to even a first time Golf Digest rater visiting Phila CC where on several greens Maxwell aded several internal rolls and contours to the "potato-chip" original shapes more prototypically Flynn.  Maybe Wayne or TEP can post some original Flynn drawings of PCC greens as they have them and we can compare them to what now exists?"

Which greens at Philadelphia CC do you think are obvious Maxwell?  

[wsmorrison]

"You tell us smarty boy.  I'll let you know if you are right."

It is hard to tell what your tone is in the above statement.  If it is, as I hope, intended to be humorous, although lame I will think little of it.

I did not claim to know which greens, if any, retain the Maxwell component.  You stated that it is obvious, even to a first time GD rater visiting PCC--that is which greens Maxwell added internal rolls and contours.  So, please tell us non GD raters what specifically you know.  In fact, I have a minute, tell me everything you know.  If I have to rely on you telling me if I'm right, I am in big trouble.

I have studied that course many times, played it more than 100 times, walked it with architects (Forse, Nagle, and Andrew) Chris Clouser (a serious student of Maxwell), Mike McNulty (one of the best supers I have met anywhere--a student of PCC architecture and club archivist) a number of times, and with other golf architecture students (Tom Paul, Craig Disher, and others).  It is not obvious to any of us what specifics are Maxwell.  We've had some interesting ideas and discussions though.

But you are a rater, you must know more than any of us.  So, stop making vague expressions of your vast knowledge and tell us what you know to be Maxwell.  I guarantee you haven't seen enough of Flynn or Maxwell to offer expert witness--you surely haven't given evidence of really understanding the admittedly large number of courses you see.  If so, you wouldn't be so sure of yourself.  It isn't as easy as you make it out to be.   You may see a lot of courses, but what you see while you're there is anybody's guess.

Are there any original Flynn greens with internal contours that may not be typical but are Flynn just the same?  I'd be interested to hear specifics.  Your generalizations without evidence are a waste of time.  

Maybe you should try and establish the 7th at Shinnecock as an original Macdonald/Raynor hole first.  You've made lame statements to that effect without proof, other than "George told me so."  Again, George did not have all the information we now have available when he made those statements.  Ask him today what he thinks.  You have been told the evidence on hand and you still make those statements.  Such is the evidence of your ability to analyze.  This isn't a cocktail party where you can try and impress the uniformed masses.  This is a forum where your statements ought to be backed up by real evidence.  Here's your chance.

[Chris_Clouser]

Tom Paul,

Jim Urbina is correct.  Actually it was mostly Dean Woods.  Dean was the construction foreman on almost every Maxwell project with only a few notable exceptions up to World War II.  

I think Bob Crosby is exactly on the money with his remark about "micro-contours."  This where Maxwell was different.  He didn't just use the big sweeping contours on the putting surface, but also smaller undulations that would just be enough to begin to push your ball in a direction until you got to one of those huge contours and then watch out.  

As for Philly Country Club.  There were a few holes there that I was pretty confident were still containing Maxwell contours, but many of those greens were rebuilt again by Flynn and Toomey just a few years later, so the lines are quite blurry.

And Hiwan is J. Press Maxwell's design.  

[TEPaul]

"You tell us smarty boy.  I'll let you know if you are right."

Do you believe this guy? You tell me and I'll let you know if you're right?!!! The best way to go about it is to just ask Wayne and he'll probably tell you all you don't now know. This is the same redanman who once said on here after playing PVGC once or twice that the club should just ask him and he'd tell them what's Colt down there and what's not!! Jeeesus, do you believe this guy??

Redanman said any Golf Digest rater could tell what's Perry Maxwell in the PCC greens!! Redanman, probably 3/4 of the 800 or so of the Golf Digest raters very likely have never even heard of Perry Maxwell!

And don't you go around using the word "poofs" on here without putting my service mark on it or I'll sue your ass for swiping my literary property!  

[TEPaul]

Wayne;

Do us all a favor and don't even bother to answer that last post of redanman---it's not worth it!

His remarks about SHGC is particularly bullshit. redanman, considering the differences in site topography between them, do you see any similarities in HVGC's #3, PCC's #7 and SHGC's redan? Let me help you---none have particularly functional run-up approaches---about the opposite in fact. Matter of fact the approaches on all three of those greens is remarkably similar! This seems to be a trademark of many of Flynn's regular redans as it is with SHGC's redan. And don't forget, William Flynn had already built a ton of redans before he got around to designing and building Shinnecock!

Wayne, again, don't answer redanman until he promises---ney, virtually guarantees that he will move to France first!  

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

You are right, it is a waste of time.  I don't know where that knucklehead gets the idea we think Flynn was everywhere.  

"The continuous implications that Flynn was everywhere including on the moon before Armstrong but no forthcoming evidence about Maxwell at PCC is incongrous."

This is the wack job's way of diverting attention from his idiocy.  He made this baseless accusation long ago and cannot support by any of our actions or writings.  At least we take the time to conduct a proper research of the material we are studying.  

I heard BillV is packing his bags for France.  So here is my last reply to him.

BillV is into shortcuts.  We're not rushing to get a book out just because he is impatient.  He's deflecting the real issue, that is his incompetence.  He is not quite a complete idiot but he does have one of the widest discrepencies I have ever seen between what he knows about golf architecture compared to what he purports to know.

We have several sets of drawings of Philadelphia Country Club.  I am certain that BillV (I can no longer call him redanman because he doesn't have a clue about the 7th at Shinnecock) has not seen these drawings because he doesn't put forth the effort to see them for himself.  He would rather walk the course as a high and mighty rater and can decide things for himself.  If he would keep it to himself I wouldn't mind.  But he is constantly putting out his uninformed opinions as fact.  If I knew how to post the drawings, I might.  But I don't see the point.  BillV doesn't know what drawings we have and what they show.  

The only hole drawings that show flow lines are the ones drawn in 1925.  These may or may not reflect the finished construction or the changes made over time...we've seen numerous times where the drawings we have do not match present surfaces even where there were no reported changes to the greens (for example Rolling Green).  With BillV's short-sighted analysis, he might think these drawings are enough in and of themselves to decide what is Flynn and what isn't.  He would be wrong yet again.

Here are some facts for BillV.  Flynn's initial design was implemented in 1926 and opened in 1927.  Some greens settled poorly and 3 or 4 were redone by Maxwell in the early to mid 1930s.  These too had problems due to the soil used in the reconstruction.  These were modified prior to the 1939 Open by the reknowned superintendent Marshall E. Farnham according to Flynn's plans.  We have the drawings by Flynn that show the changes to the course but we do not have the detailed green drawings.  In the 1950s, Farnham made changes to 1,2, and 8 greens.  The changes to the 1st green were rather significant.  Maybe BillV confuses Farnham's style to Maxwell.  In any case, 77 years after the course opened it is difficult to tell what is Maxwell, and Farnham.   We do know what is Gordon and that is more than BillV knew.

What I really find discouraging about BillV is his simplistic approach to analysing a golf course and the architectural history.  Superficial analysis doesn't work and certainly cannot be done with one or several visits.  It takes a great deal of effort, something BillV is disinclined to do.  It interferes with his quest to play as many courses as he can even though it is thereby impossible to study carefully any of them.  Searches in libraries, historical societies, interviews, conversations with scores of people in the industry, and plain hard work is required.  His uniformed conclusions make good cocktail party talk to those with a casual interest, but there is no place for them in serious discussions.  

[wsmorrison]

"If Flynn indeed built #7 at SHGC over a Raynor Green, he seemed to ruin a pretty good hole....   The hole's a slog with greens at stimp 8 and about as "natural" as implants."

More evidence of BillV stupidity.  How the heck do you know how good the Raynor green was?  Did you play it prior to the Flynn redesign?  Have you spoken to anybody who did?  What BS!

Again, you fail to take into consideration the facts previously presented to you.  The wrong tee has been in use for many decades.  The Flynn tee designed to go with the Flynn green was obsoleted long ago.  Why?  Nobody seems to know.  Shouldn't you reserve your opinion until the hole is set up as intended by Flynn?  Oh, sorry, I forgot you are not sophiticated enough to conduct a proper analysis nor smart enough to understand what you don't know.

[Paul_Turner]

Regarding redans.  I'd argue that the steep fronting back on the original at North Berwick is why the hole is called "the redan" i.e. carry a ball up and over the rampart(redan).  If the 4th at NGLA was the original then that name would never have been coined.

3rd at Piping Rock (Macdonald) is more like the original and I think a truer "redan".

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Again, forgetaboutit. Look at the remark by that airhead;

"The continuous implications that Flynn was everywhere including on the moon before Armstrong but no forthcoming evidence about Maxwell at PCC is incongrous."

Not only the very idea is off the wall and out of thin air---the way he writes it is completely unintelligible, as usual! And this is the same guy who keeps offering to proof-read the Flynn book??

[TEPaul]

Paul:

In my opinion, the 3rd at Piping Rock (where I grew up) is a really fine redan because the ball filters in off of and through the opening so well much of which has to do with the height of Piping's redan and/or its opening compared to almost any other I've seen.

But Piping's redan doesn't really play like and sure doesn't look anything like North Berwick's redan.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I agree that the blindness is less at PR.  But the hole is the closest that I know of, in the US, to the original.  Uphill, with a steep front bank...you really need to loft a ball over that bank and chase it down.

I think they do play similarly.

[wsmorrison]

I do give up, Tom.  Let France have this man and be done with it!

[TEPaul]

Paul:

There's really no bank to loft the ball over on Piping's #3 redan hole. There is a high side over there but if you get that far right you aren't going to get your ball onto the green anyway.

I've seen a lot of redans, but I've never seen one over here that looks much of anythng like the original in North Berwick.

I really shouldn't admit this because it makes us sound like two real idiots regarding architecture but the only time I played North Berwick was last year around the end of August with the USGA's Craig Ammerman. As we teed off on the 4th hole Craig looked behind him and said to me: "Why in the world would they have a big huge mound affair with some bunkers in it out in the middle of nowhere?" I said; "You got me there Craig", and we went on and played the course around to #15 where we both realized simultaneously that Goll Darnit to Heck that was the redan we'd been looking at about two hours before.

It sure didn't look like what I expected. The wind was really howling and I said to Craig something like "Just watch me hit one of the coolest massive slinging draws in there that very few white men from the western portion of Newtown Square, Pennsylvania can hit!"

And then I proceeded to hit a shot about 50 yards right of where I meant to but to my complete amazement when I got up there my ball was right behind a far left pin!

My only regret is I couldn't see that ball in action on that green-end, I guess because of that massive mound. At Piping you can see the correct redan shot most all the way until it eventually disappears over the front right of the green and down the green to the left!

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Something really revolting just occured to me. When we get redanman deported to France it may be more than likely that they won't take him! If you were a country, even one as pathetic as France is, would you really want to take a guy like that!  

[TEPaul]

redanman:

Information has just come to me that Harry Colt may have done 9-12 of the greens at Philly C.C. Why don't you go out there tonight around midnight and tell me which ones they are and tomorrow I'll tell you if you're right or not!

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

My son David just read your post #24 and started cracking up.  He doesn't know BillV but he sure has a sense for your humor.  Small wonder you two get along so well.

But Tom, France will take anyone that the USA doesn't want or that doesn't want the USA figuring they gotta be right for them.  Christ, they even wanted to keep Ira Einhorn and not extradite him for butchering his girlfriend in Philly in the early 1970s.  He skipped bail and hid out in Sweden.  The authorities were getting close to him.  Where did he go?  France of course where he'd been living with his wealthy Swedish wife till that bulldog DA Lynn Abraham got him and yanked him out of Champagne country despite France's extraordinary efforts to keep him from our justice system because we have the death penalty and he was tried in absentia.   Philly had to have some legislation changed to have him retried thanks to the Frenchies.  They did and he was found guilty.  He's rotting in an American prison rather than getting fat eating fois gras and swilling Champagne.

[Paul_Turner]

errrr no bank to get over on Piping Rock's 3rd??  



PS No point in Harry bothering with another Philly area course, he'd already designed the best

[TEPaul]

"errrr no bank to get over on Piping Rock's 3rd??"

Paul:

I guess that just goes to prove the English and the Americans really are two peoples divided by a common language. I thought you meant PR's 3rd had an enormous mound to hit the ball over like North Berwick's massive mound fronting the right side of that hole. You can't see anything on the other side of that massive mound (with a few bunkers in it). Yes, PR's #3 has a bank which is the approach to the green which is just part of what makes the entire green as raised as it is. When you said there was a large bank or mound to loft the ball over I thought perhaps you might be referring to the back of the 5th green behind the redan!  

By the way, one really can't get enough of a sense from that photo just how much PR's redan cants from right to left.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Are you suggesting redanman would be better off rotting in an American jail with Ira Einhorn? Call me first thing in the morning and we'll discuss the possibility of getting this done! At least they could wile away the years together discussing how cool it'd be if they were in France.