The Shadow Creek Experience

[ForkaB]

Tommy and Tom

You're getting sensitive.........

I'm reminded of Animal House when Kevin Bacon is getting his arse whipped by Niedermeyer's paddle:

"Thank you Sir!  Comp me again!"

"Louder, I CAN'T hear you!"

"THANK YOU SIR!  COMP ME AGAIN!!!!!!"

PS--glad you liked the course.

PPS-Barney did NOT make me do this.

[JakaB]

Does Shadow Creek have a no tipping policy.....because I would think it would be tough to get out of that place with out dropping another hundred at least between the caddie, shoe guy and other ancilliary suck pots...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
All good with me too.

As far as Rich's condescension, if he really wanted to get a bit maniacal about it and start throwing stones, throw them also at the media, i.e. Reger of the Register who probably didn't even have to pay for his hotel room either and was probably given the Black Rock treatment, if you get my meaning!

[THuckaby2]

Rich:

I wasn't sensitive at all.  I honestly had no idea what you meant by your post - my reply was geared to Tommy and other readers, not to you.  Tommy asked what others paid there, I answered about myself.

My you surely are grumpy this evening (where you live).  I had no idea baseball was that important to you.

Or are you still mad that Cypress isn't actually less than 6500 yards?

 

John K. - rest assured I too paid WAY more in other things than I would have just for the golf at Shadow.  My wife and I dined at LeCirque... good lord was it great... good lord was it expensive... but as a great man said, one cannot put a price tag on a good time... even if I often do.  Re tipping, I really don't remember... Tommy might.  I do remember paying the caddie a good deal of dough.

 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I'm not sensitive at all Rich. I think its you thats being a bit envious thats all, and there is no reason to be.

John,
We tipped the caddy more then the going rate, and as far as any other gratis, I always like to give the DOG's a copy of one of Geoff's books or Desmond's book on St. Andrews, which the DOG at Shadow Creek is one of the GREAT DOG's in Golf. A real classy guy, which Rich should take a page from.

[THuckaby2]

the DOG at Shadow Creek is one of the GREAT DOG's in Golf. A real classy guy

Absolute concurrence there.  Great guy without a doubt.  Down to earth in a sea of things telling him not to be, if that makes any sense.

TH

[JakaB]

I know alot of people who have played Shadow Creek and I don't know one person who has ever payed....half raters...half players...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

We had one caddy between the three of us, and of course, I had a cart because there was no way I was going to walk due to weight and weather. About 110 deg. if I remember right, but the course was in excellent shape and I wouldn't changed the time of year for a minute! We had a great time the night before while sitting and watching the pirate ship get blown out of the water at least a few times--or was it the alcohol?

Can't remember how much we tipped, but it was Armenian generous if you get my meaning.  Gib knows how to tip. He's awesome at it because you see the guys walk away with a smile on their face!

[JakaB]

Tommy,

I only asked about the tipping policy because it has to add to the cost.....I'm just guessing the number of people who pay greenfees is very, very low.....and the caddies know who they and the raters are.....thus the double bagger.   A Double Bagger is pretty low rent for something that is sold as an Experience..

[Tommy_Naccarato]

He and I rode around together the entire front nine and I really enjoyed his company.

The back nine he had excuse himself and go in and do some DOG stuff, but then wanted to buy us lunch afterwards. Gib had to get back, so we all passed, and as he escourted us out to the limo, practically sending us off like we were family members leaving Thanksgiving dinner, he told us not to hesitate in ever wanting to come back. Matter of fact, he told me that if I wanted to come back later in the day when it cooled down, I could!

John, Nothing is free in Vegas, remember that.  Whether it be what we paid for the rooms, tipping the staff, gambling at the tables, spending it in their fine restaurants, etc. MGM has more then paid for Shadow Creek.  The high green fee is a neccessity to keep up the mystique of it being the predominant golf course in Las Vegas. It is the golf course that is looked upon and envyed by all others in that area. I suspect it always will be, and thats what makes Shadow Creek GREAT in that regard.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John, Yes, that would be true to some extent.

Still, the one thing that impresses me the most about Shadow Creek is feeling good about being there. Its definitely not feeling good about the golf course, because its just not that great of a golf course--its the scale of the place itself and what they have created there thats good.

Its sort of like the Mirage Hotel which was built at the same time. I don't like the Mirage, from the interior to the gambling to the rooms. I feel like I'm a prisoner in a Vietnamese Concentration Camp in the jungle.  I have literally be robbed at the tables, BUT QUICK! I just don't think its as nice as say the Venetian or Cesars Palace.

But in truth, I'm a Rio kind of guy! (Still the best place to stay in all Vegas!)

[THuckaby2]

JK - remember the audience here, most of whom ARE raters.  So of course you haven't heard on here from many, or any, who have paid full freight at Shadow Creek.  It is damn expensive, so I'm guessing they get very little full-paying play.  But who knows.

As for caddie, well... Tommy's right, it is hot most of the time... I went in November though and weather was great and we had three of us and two caddies.  They drove carts, we walked for the most part.  I didn't feel like that added or detracted to the experience, really - it was just their rules, that's how it went.  I don't think walking with a solo caddie there would have added much.  But you're right.. if I am paying $500, I might want that.

TH

[JakaB]

Huck,

Just so I can say I know someone who payed...were you with raters or buddies and did the guys with you pay....because I can't imagine getting paired with a stranger if I am paying $500.....

[Gary_Nelson]

OK... the experience is great, the DOG is nice, the caddies are well-tipped.

How about the golf?  Reading this thread I get the feeling Shadow Creek is a pedestrian golf course with little excitement or strategy.  I just don't want to believe that it's true.  

Sure there is some eye-candy (ie. waterfalls, creek, pond).  Other than adding to the construction costs... what's the harm?  

Does this course really suck?  Or are you trying to say that the Shadow Creek architecture is worse than Rustic Canyon and the other group of favorites on this forum?

Are the greens flat and boring?
Are the bunkers in the wrong place?
Are the doglegs too doggie?

What's wrong with Shadow Creek to earn the bad rap?

[THuckaby2]

Sorry John, I was paired with another rater - nice guy from SoCal, don't remember his name, hey it was a few years ago -  and the DOG himself.  I went in the era before they opened it to the general public willing to pay $500.  

I also can't imagine them pairing you with a stranger if you pay the full freight.  I can't see them having a need to do that.

TH

[Brian_Gracely]

How is it different from Pebble Beach, where people get paired with strangers all the time?

[THuckaby2]

OK... the experience is great, the DOG is nice, the caddies are well-tipped.

How about the golf?  Reading this thread I get the feeling Shadow Creek is a pedestrian golf course with little excitement or strategy.  I just don't want to believe that it's true.  

Sure there is some eye-candy (ie. waterfalls, creek, pond).  Other than adding to the construction costs... what's the harm?  

Does this course really suck?  Or are you trying to say that the Shadow Creek architecture is worse than Rustic Canyon and the other group of favorites on this forum?

Are the greens flat and boring?
Are the bunkers in the wrong place?
Are the doglegs too doggie?

What's wrong with Shadow Creek to earn the bad rap?

Gary - I'm sure Tommy will be happy to answer all of that.  He finds all those negatives.  Just rest assured that I did not and there are others that agree with me (Dave Wigler comes to mind).  I think it's a damn fine golf course even outside the experience.  But having argued about this WAY WAY WAY too many times already, well I'll let Tommy have the floor and he can tell you how it sucks.  Just put me down for disagreeing with him and then I don't need to do this all over again.

 

Please also do understand that the only place Shadow Creek has a bad rap is in THIS forum, and it's primarily Tommy's viewpoint, though there were others (Gib to some extent) who agreed with him.  Ask anyone else outside this forum, and well... not many will have seen the course... but those who have tend to like it.  A lot.  Its detractors try to explain away the very high rankings and ratings it gets in various different ways, but highly-ranked it remains, for better or for worse.

TH

[THuckaby2]

How is it different from Pebble Beach, where people get paired with strangers all the time?

FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR less play.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Gary -

Put me in Huck's corner as someone that liked the course a lot. I paid to play, was comped as a gambler, and played as a rater and enjoyed each and every round. Is it the most difficult course in the world? No. Is the experience right up at the top of the charts? Yes.

[THuckaby2]

Gary -

Put me in Huck's corner as someone that liked the course a lot. I paid to play, was comped as a gambler, and played as a rater and enjoyed each and every round. Is it the most difficult course in the world? No. Is the experience right up at the top of the charts? Yes.

Jim: WHEW!  I was hoping someone would chime in here who paid.  Sounds like you covered all parts of the spectrum in that regard.  

And seeing your post reminds me.. we might have a little thing to discuss come early January... LONG way to go, for sure, but here's hoping it happens.

Tommy Trojan Huckaby

[Gary_Nelson]

Jim,

Was it strategic?
Was the architecture good?
Was there anything holding it back from being as good as a course like Pasatiempo?

It doesn't bother me that it's a parkland course in a desert.  What does bother me is the suggestion that Fazio's unlimited budget resulted in a boring layout.

[THuckaby2]

Gary, I know you didn't ask me, but I'm trying to kill time and I can't resist.

Was it strategic?
hell yes.  lots of strategic choices to be made.

Was the architecture good?
absolutely.  But of course I consider part of the "architecture" the amazing engineering achievement that they pulled off there.  But outside of that, it is well routed, the holes are well-balanced, it does have all the hallmarks of good architecture that most consider important.  CAVEAT - expect Tommy to gag and come back with some serious bile disagreeing with this.  

Was there anything holding it back from being as good as a course like Pasatiempo?
well, since damn near every ranking in existence has it above Pasatiempo, I think that's a good enough answer.  Now of course it's mind-boggling to think what MacKenzie could have done with a blank slate of land and an unlimited budget, but sadly he never got that chance.  Fazio did, for better or for worse, and the result is great.

It doesn't bother me that it's a parkland course in a desert.  What does bother me is the suggestion that Fazio's unlimited budget resulted in a boring layout.
It didn't.  Don't let Tommy fool you.  But god dammit how did I get sucked into this again?
 

[Jim Franklin]

Huck -

I have my fingers crossed, but think even if my boys go undefeated, we won't get a shot at you. I can't see OU or USC losing before year's end. The computers will somehow put OU above us or even Auburn although Auburn will get beat by Georgia.

Gary -

It doesn't have the elevation changes that Pasa has, but also it doesn't have the homes on it that Pasa does. That is a HUGE plus in my book. You get different views of the mountains in the back, the par threes are good, and if the wind blows it sure isn't a push over. Could Fazio have done a better job? We'll see at Wynn Las Vegas when that opens.

What are you looking for in a strategic golf course and I'll tell you if it has it. But for a flat piece of desert, he did a terrific job.

[Jim Franklin]

Huck -

I got sucked in too, so at least you have a wing man .

[THuckaby2]

Jim - got it - and good call re Shadow Creek.

As for the MORE important issues, well I sadly think you're right... of course it is an easier road for SC, but there's a long way to go before they reach the end, also... an Irish pitfall looms, as does a Bruin... But the main point is, I don't think USC and Miami have EVER played, have they?  Maybe somewhere along the line, but not in the recent decades of Miami prominence... thus it would be fun to see.  Oklahoma has a been there, done that feel...

TH

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