Love & Hate

[David_Tepper]

Mr. Mucci-

Could you please remind us again which courses in GB&I you have played? On what experience are you basing your knowledge of the penal nature of golf courses there?

At no time did I every say or imply that that OB or hazard stakes did not exist at all on courses in GB&I. What I and half a dozen others have said here repeatedly is that they are fair less common and far less intrusive on play than so many courses you find here in the US.

Maybe you don't understand the answers to your own question!

DT  
 

[Doug Siebert]

Where is the bail out area off the tee on # 1 at Prestwick ?

Well, I thought everyone knew the strategy there is to aim left with your 200 yard club.  That's quite a nice bail out area, you'd have to really screw up to mess that shot up.  Don't go overdoing it and saying that any hole with any possibility of a penalty is penal -- if the first was a 450 yard par 4 that might be true since a 200 yard drive wouldn't help you much.  But the damn thing's so short its only a wedge or a short iron after your 200 yard drive so its not unreasonable to expect that kind of layup.  I suppose you think the Cardinal is penal because if you bust loose with a driver you might never find your ball, even though two 200 yard shots is good enough to get home in the prevailing wind there.

In fact, despite getting a 102 at Prestwick last time I was there, sandwiched between 76s at Turnberry the day before and North Berwick the day after (mentioned only so you know just how bad a 102 is for me) I still don't think Prestwick is excessively penal.  It just looks so innocent it tempts you into doing stupid things, like trying to drive the 4th green (cost me two lost balls and an 8 for me there after two pushes about 10 yards off the perfect line) or little things go wrong that you make worse by trying to do too much in the recovery.

Other than Himalaya, there aren't any forced carries at Prestwick more than maybe 100 yards, and you are only carrying deep grass where a good caddie will probably find your ball.  If you are going to pick on penal courses in the UK, at least pick on places like Old Head or the gorse choked munis in Troon.  Prestwick ain't penal by my definition, because you've always got a way out.  Its just up to the stupidity and/or overconfidence of the golfer if that way out isn't taken.

[TEPaul]

"If you are going to pick on penal courses in the UK, at least pick on places like Old Head."

Doug:

I've only played Old Head one time and it was one of my proudest moments in golf because I managed to play the course in really high winds from the tips and break 80 with ONE BALL! This great friend of mine and I played with a caddie who'd been out with Tiger Woods the week before and he kept telling us where Tiger hit the ball on every hole which was depressing, but Tiger lost two balls during his round. The best part was my friend lost all the balls in his bag after about six holes and I was able to sell him the balls in my bag for increasingly inflated prices per ball as the round progressed. On one hole he almost lost a club trying to hit a ball!

Our wives were with us and that was the time as we came over the final hill and Old Head appeared before us there were four simultaneous "OH MY GODS" the likes of which I'd never heard before.

While I was playing that course I got three separate bouts of vertigo and I also had a some interesting conversations with a few of the Eirrean people who'd lived there approximately 4000 years ago.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Tepper,

Why don't you try reviewing the opening post again, and this time, try to do it with a greater degree of reading comprehension.

I've color coded and capped the critical words in order to make it easier for you.[/color]

Why do Americans LOVE going to the UK to play penal golf courses/features[/color], and HATE to play penal features[/color] on their HOME[/color] golf course ?

Is it the contrast, the variety, or just whimping out when challenged, and the notion of "fair" ?

Doug Siebert,

Would you cite for me, exactly where and when I said that Prestwick was a penal golf course ?  Thanks.

And, in order to understand your response with respect to the play of the first hole at Prestwick, I'd like to know your handicap.  I know you stated that you shot 102 at Prestwick, a golf course you indicated wasn't penal, and I'd like to know how the score of 102 relates to your handicap or usual scores.

When I played the Cardinal, the wind wasn't at my back.
Are you certain that it's THE prevailing wind, or just one of the prevailing winds ?
Thanks.

[David_Tepper]

Mr. Mucci -

To reiterate what I and 5 or 6 others have said here already -
it is because the courses in GB&I ARE DIFFERENT IN THEIR PENAL NATURE!

While LOVE and HATE are your words, not ours, the variety and contrast of golf in GB&I is what draws us over there.

I play a course regularly here in the SF Bay Area that has hazard stakes and/or forced carries on 11 holes. On 3 of those holes the stakes are in play on at least two shots. There are 6 or 7 tee shots where the OB fence is no more than 40 yards from the center of the fairway. On two of those holes, there is OB that comes into play on both sides of the fairway/rough that is perhaps 60-70 yards wide.  There is no course in GB&I that I have played that is remotely similar in that regard.

Contrast that with a course such as Brora. I was able to play there last month with my wife, who is a novice golfer. Even though it was a very, very windy day and the terrain there is challenging, my wife was able to negotiate her way around the course and enjoy it. If I recall correctly, I do not think she lost a ball.  While Brora is a bit unique as the livestock keeps the rough very low, there is no way she could play the course I just described here in the Bay Area and enjoy it half as much.      

Does that make sense to you?

DT

 

   

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick,

OK, I guess you didn't say Prestwick was penal.  But you did ask where the bailout was on the tee shot for #1, which leads me to believe you are trying to imply it is penal just because it has an OB that's easily in play for someone who is stupid and doesn't take advantage of all that room to the left.

As for my handicap when I was there, I was a 4.5 when I shot that 102 at Prestwick.  Note that I mentioned I shot 76 at Turnberry the day before that round (in about a 25-30 mph wind) and a 76 at North Berwick the day after.  So it wasn't a matter of me not bringing my game to Scotland, and I don't think it was a matter of it being penal.  It was just the wind, rain squalls and the fact it makes everything look so easy but you don't realize the consequences of some shots until after it is too late.  Undoubtedly I shouldn't try to overpower the course as that didn't work too well for me there

I guess I don't know for sure the wind I had at Prestwick is the prevailing wind, it was the same wind on both my visits.  On the Cardinal I hit 4i off the tee sort of quartering into the wind at the bunker on the left, and the wind pushed it right alongside the bunker and just short of the Cardinal.  Then an 8i to the little depression behind the green from 230 dead downwind (it was a LOT of wind...)  If those clubs sound ludicrous to most Prestwick visitors then perhaps I'm just getting a strange wind when I visit.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Tepper,

Would you say the golf course that you regularly play in the SF bay area is representative of all of the golf courses in the US with respect to OB, forced carries and staked hazards ?

Would you say that using that single club as the basis or prototype for all courses in the US is a distortion of the facts ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Siebert,

OK, I guess you didn't say Prestwick was penal.  But you did ask where the bailout was on the tee shot for #1, which leads me to believe you are trying to imply it is penal just because it has an OB that's easily in play for someone who is stupid and doesn't take advantage of all that room to the left.
Donald Steel states that the 1st hole at Prestwick is "one of golf's great opening holes, demanding the straightest of drives between the stone wall on the right and gorse and heather on the left"  If you factor in a left to right, right to left or headwind, it makes the hole even harder.

While heather and gorse may be preferable to OB I certainly wouldn't describe the area as a bail out area.  At 346 yards, it's not exactly a longish par 3 type hole.

Be honest and tell me how you played the hole and what you scored on it.

Deep bunkers, OB, heather and gorse, blind approaches and blind tee shots, a winding water course and wind don't seem like a walk in the park, or a day at your average American course to me.  At Par 72 what is the competitive course record at Prestwick ?  You'll notice that I've left out the rain and cold.[/color]

As for my handicap when I was there, I was a 4.5 when I shot that 102 at Prestwick.  Note that I mentioned I shot 76 at Turnberry the day before that round (in about a 25-30 mph wind) and a 76 at North Berwick the day after.  So it wasn't a matter of me not bringing my game to Scotland, and I don't think it was a matter of it being penal.  It was just the wind, rain squalls and the fact it makes everything look so easy but you don't realize the consequences of some shots until after it is too late.  Undoubtedly I shouldn't try to overpower the course as that didn't work too well for me there
What tees did you play ?[/color]

I guess I don't know for sure the wind I had at Prestwick is the prevailing wind, it was the same wind on both my visits.  On the Cardinal I hit 4i off the tee sort of quartering into the wind at the bunker on the left, and the wind pushed it right alongside the bunker and just short of the Cardinal.  Then an 8i to the little depression behind the green from 230 dead downwind (it was a LOT of wind...)  If those clubs sound ludicrous to most Prestwick visitors then perhaps I'm just getting a strange wind when I visit.

Imagine playing # 1 with that wind in your face, left to right or right to left  [/color]

[David_Tepper]

Mr. Mucci-

Please remind us again which course in GB&I you have played?

Is the 1st hole at Prestwick representative of all the golf holes in GB&I?

To assume or imply that any one course is "representative of all the golf courses" in the US regarding any aspect of the game (aside from the commonality of having 18 holes!) is an absurd notion. I did no such thing in my prior post. I merely cited that course as an example of its type, a type which is a little to common for my taste.

There are multiple courses here in San Francisco (OC Lake, Harding Park, Presidio & Lake Merced) that are virtually free of OB/hazard stakes and forced carries.  However, tree-lined fairways are a big part of the penal nature of those courses.
Playing golf in GB&I provides a pleasant alternative to that kind of environment as well.

Does that make sense to you?

DT  

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Tepper,

Mr. Mucci-

Please remind us again which course in GB&I you have played?

Troon, Prestwick, Western Gailes, Turnberry, St Andrews, Gullane, North Berwick, Gleneagles.[/color]

Is the 1st hole at Prestwick representative of all the golf holes in GB&I?

I never postured that it was, as you did with the unnamed course you claim to play regularly, in the SF bay area.

I cited # 1 at Prestwick because you indicated that American courses had out-of-bounds, as if out-of-bounds didn't exist in Scotland.  I cited the 1st hole at Prestwick and many other examples of courses in Scotland where out-of-bounds was a substantive feature and factor in playing the golf course.[/color]

To assume or imply that any one course is "representative of all the golf courses" in the US regarding any aspect of the game (aside from the commonality of having 18 holes!) is an absurd notion. I did no such thing in my prior post. I merely cited that course as an example of its type, a type which is a little to common for my taste.

I don't know how common that is.
Certainly site constraints and environmental issues make it more difficult to eliminate those features.  But, I thought that you offered up your course as representative of a typical American course, despite it being an extreme example, in order to try to make your case.[/color]

There are multiple courses here in San Francisco (OC Lake, Harding Park, Presidio & Lake Merced) that are virtually free of OB/hazard stakes and forced carries.  However, tree-lined fairways are a big part of the penal nature of those courses.
Playing golf in GB&I provides a pleasant alternative to that kind of environment as well.

I don't think that holes that are lined with trees on both sides are necessarily punitive.
If you watch The Masters each spring, and see each hole lined with trees on both sides, the word "penal" doesn't jump to mind.  Even at Pine Valley, it's not the trees that line both sides of each hole that comprise the "penal" nature of the golf course, it's the combination of the other features.[/color]

Does that make sense to you?

I understand what you're trying to say, but think it misses the gist of this thread in the context of the original post.[/color]

[David_Tepper]

Mr. Mucci-

Now, I would refer you back to your original post. Did you not ask us to comment upon the penal features of our HOME course(s)?

I offered comments and observations on Rooster Run, a very nice muni course I play freqeuntly Petaluma. In no way did I claim or posture when first describing this course that it was representative of all golf courses in the US. I have no idea how you got that impression.    

I never claimed that OB and hazard stakes did not exist on golf courses in GB&I. I simply asserted that they are far less obvious or in play on the 40+ golf courses that I have played in GB&I.  

As I have not played any of the 8 courses in Scotland that you have played, our perceptions/experiences of the penal aspects of golf courses in GB&I may very well be legitimately different.

Finally, with regard to the tree-lined fairways on the 4 courses in San Francisco I mentioned, I can assure you that, as an OC member since 1979 and a member of the Presidio for 16 years, the tree-lines on those courses are very much in play. A number of the fairways at the Presidio are barely 30 yards from one tree-line to the other. One of the first shots you learn playing golf in San Francisco is how to punch a 4 or 5-iron out from under a tree branch.

As I have only seen AGNC on TV or in pictures, I cannot tell how wide the fairways really are there.  Of course, now that they grow rough for the Masters, the trees are less in play than they used to be.  However, I do recall many instances in the past when a drive right on 13 or left on 15 caused a player to be blocked from going for the green in two.  Seems to me a fair number of drives on 18 caught the trees down the right side of the fairway as well.  

DT

[Doug Siebert]

Donald Steel states that the 1st hole at Prestwick is "one of golf's great opening holes, demanding the straightest of drives between the stone wall on the right and gorse and heather on the left"  If you factor in a left to right, right to left or headwind, it makes the hole even harder.

While heather and gorse may be preferable to OB I certainly wouldn't describe the area as a bail out area.  At 346 yards, it's not exactly a longish par 3 type hole.

Be honest and tell me how you played the hole and what you scored on it.

Deep bunkers, OB, heather and gorse, blind approaches and blind tee shots, a winding water course and wind don't seem like a walk in the park, or a day at your average American course to me.  At Par 72 what is the competitive course record at Prestwick ?  You'll notice that I've left out the rain and cold.[/color]

Patrick,

OK, one more response to humor you on this, but I think we're getting sort of off topic...

Last time I was there I think I played a 5i or 6i off the tee, towards the left.  There's gorse over there, but not if you don't hit more than 200.  I pulled my approach left and long and bogeyed it.  The second hole was a peach, I hit into the bunker short left, tried to get too cute getting out and left it there, then took my medicine and got out sideways, chipped on the green and two putted for a triple.  On the 3rd I hit in the hollow behind the green as I mentioned previously, flipped a little LW to about 6' and birdied it.  On the 4th I tried to drive it, twice, and both times pushed it about 10 yards right of the line I was aiming at into the waist high grass or water (knew I couldn't find it either way so it was lost), then took my medicine with a middle iron, wedge and two putt for an 8.  Kind of goes from bad to good to worse like that all day, with most of the worst on the holes that were the easiest and the best on the more difficult (I'm sure you can see why that was)

Anyway, I'm not arguing that Prestwick is a walk in the park, only that it isn't as penal to me as kind of courses I find often in the states, with plenty of OB, gunk, or water that's well within play and sometimes lacks a reasonable out.  I certainly feel like if I approached Prestwick from the point of view of caring only about shooting the lowest score (which I do not when I play golf, particularly a really good strategic course like Prestwick) I could have left my driver in the hotel room, resolved to make sure I recovered in one shot anytime I got in trouble even if it meant giving up a stroke, and easily finished in the 80s, even on the very windy and squally day I was there.  But I wouldn't have had nearly as much fun playing that way.  I can't imagine having nearly so good a time shooting 20 shots above my handicap on most courses in the US

[Doug Siebert]

David,

I know what you mean about the Presidio, there are some pretty tight "between the trees" areas there.  But that's not even what I think of when I think of "penal" courses, because you can find and play your ball there.  If you take those trees and stop maintenance on the area under them for about 10-15 years, so that it is all deep grass, weeds, brush and saplings so that if your ball goes in there on the fly it is just the purest of luck if you find it, THAT'S what I'm talking about with penal.  You have that on both sides of the fairway, or on one side with OB or water on the other, that's what I consider penal -- in fact, I'd consider water on one side instead of those thick brush choked trees on both sides as preferable, because at least you get distance if you miss on the water side

Once in a while I'll play a course that is crowded in land or has a routing issue and you end up playing down a corridor like that which is extremely narrow -- I saw one this year that I stepped off at 21 yards wide at the WIDEST point from about 150 off the tee to where the dogleg started at about 250.  As the hole was about 320, I figured the best play was to hit it about 140 off the tee where it is still wide, then play over the corner of the dogleg from there.  If I am ever stupid enough to return to that course again, at least I'll know how to attack that hole!

My home course is similar to the Presidio in terms of the tree lined fairways (and they keep planting more every year as they locate any possible open spots) but there are only a few places where the area is unmaintained so that a ball might be lost, and hitting OB, while not impossible, isn't very common.  While its a poster child for a tree removal program, I don't think of it as penal.  Though I'm sure the rating and especially slope are higher than they would be if the trees were reduced in number to where they were when I first played it about 25 years ago.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Tepper,

I'll repeat the original post in order to avoid confusion.[/color]

Why do Americans LOVE going to the UK to play penal golf courses/features, and HATE to play penal features on their home golf course ?

Note the contrast in "loving" the penal features in the UK and "hating" them in the US.  I didn't ask you to comment on the particular features of your home course, more specifcally, the post was directed at the golfer's mindset, his desire to travel a great distance and play courses of a demanding nature while abhoring the same features on his home course.[/color]

Is it the contrast, the variety, or just whimping out when challenged, and the notion of "fair" ?

Doug Siebert,

I was only interested in learning of your play of # 1 at Prestwick.  Hitting a 5 or 6 iron off the tee on a 346 yard hole, seems to only be possible with a good wind at your back, unless you favor a long approach from an unteed lie, with OB on the right.

I'm also confused by your statement that you don't try to shoot the lowest score when playing golf.  If that's the case, then strategy, architectural features and obstacles have no meaning, including OB, gunk or water.

Why not just walk the golf course and pretend to play golf ?  


What courses do you find in the U.S., that you regularly play that contain, "plenty of OB, gunk or water", as you described ?

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

You just can't accept that a whole bunch of us disagree with the basic premise behind your question, can you?

When you say:  

"the post was directed at the golfer's mindset, his desire to travel a great distance and play courses of a demanding nature while abhoring the same features on his home course."

one has to agree that the courses overseas have the same types of penal features as those at home.  And a whole bunch of us here don't agree with that basic premise, which you are taking as an assumption.  None of us are trying to dodge your question; rather, we simply can't answer it.  You might as well ask "why do you think the Yankees will beat the Red Sox in the 2004 ALCS."

But giving you the extreme benefit of the doubt here, I will repeat what I already said on this thread:  my only possible answer is that the US golfer accepts the penal features of UK links simply because they are so different from those at home.  That is, heather/gorse/hay-like rough along with very deep straight-sided bunkers is a whole different thing from OB lines along houses, thick trees, multiple water hazards.  So it's not that he accepts penal features over there when he doesn't at home, it's more he accepts these DIFFERENT penal features, because he's just visiting, doesn't have to deal with them all the time, and they are just so totally different, as links golf is really a different game than the parkland he gets at home.

Hopefully that's an acceptable answer.

 

[Mike Benham]

You admit that the bunkers in the UK are more penal, then get confused by saying that water and OB are more penal then those bunkers.

UK fairway bunkers, specifically those at TOC, are more penal than US fairway bunkers with US fairway bunkers being relatively flat offering an opportunity to attempt a shot to the green, sorry for not stating that.[/i]  

Tell me, is the OB in the UK less penal then the OB in the US ?

No, of course not, but from my experience the OB in the UK is less intrusive and comes into play less frequently then OB in the US.[/i]

Are the water hazards less penal in the UK then the ones in the US.

No, of course not, but from my experience they are less frequent then in the US.[/i]

When asked to cite examples, you cite one hole in all of golf in the US, the 17th at TPC, and offer that as the sole support for your position ? ?

You asked for examples and I offered one, I never said it was my sole support of my position, you only assumed that.[/i]

You overlook heather and gorse yet cite cactus and shrubs ?

No, I did not overlook heather and gorse, but if I have never been in it, how can I comment on it ... [/i]

[Doug Siebert]

Doug Siebert,

I was only interested in learning of your play of # 1 at Prestwick.  Hitting a 5 or 6 iron off the tee on a 346 yard hole, seems to only be possible with a good wind at your back, unless you favor a long approach from an unteed lie, with OB on the right.

I'm also confused by your statement that you don't try to shoot the lowest score when playing golf.  If that's the case, then strategy, architectural features and obstacles have no meaning, including OB, gunk or water.

Why not just walk the golf course and pretend to play golf ?  


What courses do you find in the U.S., that you regularly play that contain, "plenty of OB, gunk or water", as you described ?

The wind was helping somewhat off the #1 tee as I recall it.  But even into the wind, playing a 200 yard shot would seem to be the play there, even if its a really big wind and I need a 1 iron to do it.  True, I do trade dealing with the OB from the tee shot to the second shot -- but I'd rather play at trouble to the right, as my misses to the right are usually short (open club face)  For trouble to the left I'd rather play away from it, so if the hole was reversed with the wall on the left I might have a harder time deciding how to play it.

As for "not trying to shoot the lowest score", I play more for the fun and the challenge.  That is, I'm not trying to make 8s, or try shots that are completely impossible for me, but if I have two options, one that challenges my game and one that's just a simple and boring safe option, I'll take the challenging option.  I think Shivas has posted similar thoughts about what his goals are when he's playing.

I've posted written before on GCA about choosing to play at a back left pin directly over the Road Bunker from 170 in the wispy rough left of the fairway on #17 TOC, and why, before so I won't bore anyone with it again unless you want to hear it, but that's the sort of thing I'm talking about it.  I could have laid up to the right still had a chance at par, but even though I knew that even Tiger couldn't have held that green from where I was, I tried it BECAUSE I knew I'd end up getting to play from either the Road Bunker or the road, and the kick in par I ended up with was all that more meaningful to me over what it would have been had I played the hole the chicken way out to the right.

If you don't understand what I mean when I said "BECAUSE I knew I'd end up getting to play from either the Road Bunker or the road", then there's probably no point in my trying to explain it further, as you'll never understand...

[SPDB]

Pat - Assuming that your generalized description of "Americans" is true (a huge assumption), the answer could be simply that people enjoy the penal features in Scotland because they are in Scotland, where they are presumably on a vacation. Its also likely that people are interested in the variety and difference of the features found in Scotland.  You know the old saying "variety is the spice of life, and penal water hazards are the bane."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

It depends on whether people want to be honest or just contrarian.

I've played a few courses in the U.S. and I'd have to say that the architectural features, especially the bunkers, are far, far more difficult at Troon, Turnberry, TOC, Gullane, Prestwick, Western Gailes, and North Berwick.

When out-of-bounds, water hazards lining the fairways, tree lined fairways, forced carries and gunk are cited by responders, I have to ask, what courses are these ?

Sounded a little bit like some of the above courses I mentioned in Scotland.

The gist of what I was saying is that Americans seem to like those deep bunkers with sod faced walls, randomly intersperced in the lines of play.  Yet, seem to find such features intolerable at their home course.

Driving over a railway shed is looked forward to, like a kid anticipating a halloween treat, yet, such a driving impediment would be looked at unfavorably in the US.

On the other hand, I recognize the, "it's a nice place to visit, but, you wouldn't want to live there." attitude.

GCGC includes many of those features mentioned as penal.
GCGC has out-of-bounds, water hazards, gunk, forced carries and deep, deep, straight faced bunkers, and invisible bunkers, yet most members love to play it day in and day out, as do many guests, so perhaps it's the membership, the culture of the club and the golfer, rather then the vacation theory you espouse.  Come to think of it, NGLA has those same features.

Perhaps the handicap system is part of the problem.

Mike Benham,

I now understand.

You drive it in the cactus and brush, but not in the heather and gorse.  This is probably due to your body's reaction to warmer climates.  Colder climates prevent your muscles from loosening up, hence your swing is short, and your drives, accurate.  Warm weather allows for lose muscles and a full swing, hence the cactus and brush are well within your shot patterns.

Doug Siebert,

The first time, and every time thereafter that I played the 10th hole at Pine Valley, I tried to make birdie, which meant not hitting my tee shot into the DA.

That didn't stop me from taking a ball and throwing it into the DA, just for the experience, but I wasn't going to ignore the tactical signal sent by the architecture.

When I played the 17th at TOC for the first time, I hit a good tee shot and tried to draw the ball to the pin, avoiding the greenside bunker, which I did, and made par.  That didn't stop me from dropping a ball into that bunker and trying my luck at getting out.  On the other hand, I went for the pin, either over drawing or pulling my a tee shot into the left greenside bunker on the Eden hole and made one of the best bunker shots I'd ever hit to 3 feet to save par.  But, the difference is, my tee shot was a prudent shot, well thought out, I just didn't execute it properly.  A shot that is poorly thought out, is what it is, as are the results, AND... they have several definitions for people who continually make thinking mistakes on the golf course, especially if there's something on the line, besides the desire to score well.

SPDB,

There's a good deal of out-of-bounds at the courses in Scotland that I mentioned.  The same can be said of water hazards/beaches, like at Turnberry and others, and the bunkers are demanding.

As I stated above, GCGC and NGLA have many of these same features, yet golfers love to play there.

However, I see few courses in the U.S. that want to emulate these conditions, these features.

I don't think the vacation factor is the primary factor, nor do I think variety is the primary factor.

I think fairness, the handicap system, and the need to please every faction within a membership may be the primary culprits.

[David_Tepper]

Mr. Mucci -

I would suggest, sir, that perhaps you should broaden your horizons just a bit, in terms of golf courses you play both here in the US and in GB&I.  As one who apparently has the good fortune to play Garden City and National Golf Links on a regular basis, with an occasional round at Pine Valley or Augusta National thrown in for good measure, you are indeed a very fortunate man.  

But most of us here on GCA live in the real world, unable to play such classic venues on a regular basis.  We are obliged to play far more modern courses, where OB/hazard stakes and forced carries intrude far more regularly in the line of play than you might think or are accustomed to. I can assure you that there are probably half a dozen courses similar to Rooster Run in this regard here in the Bay Area.

Likewise, a broader sampling of courses in GB&I might alter your perception of the penal nature of courses in GB&I. At the very least, open your 'World Atlas of Golf' and take a look at the renderings of Muirfield, Portmarnock, Portrush, Ganton, Hoylake & Sandwich. In those 108 holes of golf, there are perhaps 3 or 4 forced carries and OB/hazard stakes intrude on no more than a handful of holes.    

I and half a dozen others here (who I am guessing have collectively played 200-400 rounds of golf in GB&I) have responded to your question, based on our experiences and observations, multiple times. Yet you seem to question whether we "want to be honest or just contrarian."  Thanks for insulting all of us.

And finally, what in the world does the handicap system have to do with this discussion?

DT
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mr. Mucci -

I would suggest, sir, that perhaps you should broaden your horizons just a bit, in terms of golf courses you play both here in the US and in GB&I.  As one who apparently has the good fortune to play Garden City and National Golf Links on a regular basis, with an occasional round at Pine Valley or Augusta National thrown in for good measure, you are indeed a very fortunate man.  

But most of us here on GCA live in the real world, unable to play such classic venues on a regular basis.  We are obliged to play far more modern courses, where OB/hazard stakes and forced carries intrude far more regularly in the line of play than you might think or are accustomed to. I can assure you that there are probably half a dozen courses similar to Rooster Run in this regard here in the Bay Area.
I've played a great number of courses in the U.S., private and public, modern and old, all in the real world and would submit that that body of experience is more then sufficient to make a judgement on playing conditions.

If there are so many courses, so penal, in the Bay area, why would anyone choose to play them ?
I've only played Olympic, San Francisco, Bodega Harbor, Santa Rosa CC and Fountaingrove in the Bay area and north, and Pebble, Spyglass, Spanish Bay and Cypress to the south, although resort courses would be disqualified from my exercise, as would public courses since the golfers that play public courses have no say in removing, altering or adding architectural features to those golf courses.[/color]

Likewise, a broader sampling of courses in GB&I might alter your perception of the penal nature of courses in GB&I. At the very least, open your 'World Atlas of Golf' and take a look at the renderings of Muirfield, Portmarnock, Portrush, Ganton, Hoylake & Sandwich. In those 108 holes of golf, there are perhaps 3 or 4 forced carries and OB/hazard stakes intrude on no more than a handful of holes.

I've read the "World Atlas of Golf" and "Classic Golf Links of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland".  Are out-of-bounds stakes the same as walls, fences or other features that form the line of demarcation for out-of-bounds ?

We could go through course by course, and not just the few you mentioned in a search for forced carries, out-of-bounds, water, heather and gorse, and deep bunkers, if you'd like.[/color]

I and half a dozen others here (who I am guessing have collectively played 200-400 rounds of golf in GB&I) have responded to your question, based on our experiences and observations, multiple times. Yet you seem to question whether we "want to be honest or just contrarian."  Thanks for insulting all of us.

No need to thank me,  it's been my pleasure.

No need to thank me because you and the other half dozen you reference don't understand the question, nor the context in which it was posed.  I only wish TEPaul had joined your ranks.[/color]

And finally, what in the world does the handicap system have to do with this discussion?

What scores have traditionally counted for handicap in the UK ?
What scores have traditionally counted for handicap in the U.S. ?

Are you begining to see, what in the world the handicap system has to do with this discussion ?

It's more subtle then out-of-bounds stakes.[/color]

[TEPaul]

Hey Pat, how do you get the text in your answers to be that cool green color? Do you over-irrigate it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Hey Pat, how do you get the text in your answers to be that cool green color? Do you over-irrigate it?

NO, I over fertilize it.[/color]

Just do the following:
for bold text, type a bracket [ the letter b, and the end bracket ]

for color, type a bracket [ then insert the following words,
color=_____ (insert whatever color you want) then type in the end or closing bracket ]

To end bold or color text, just type in the bracket, [ a backslash / then the letter b and then the closing bracket ]

for color just type in the bracket [ a backslash / then the word color (without any need to reference the color type) and then the closing bracket ]

It's easy and can save you time.

Also, rather then type what someone said, just hit the quote button, and you will bring up what they said and you can respond to that without wasting your time retyping their text.

You'll see two brackets, at the begining of the quote you'll see [guote] and at the end you'll see [/guote]  I've deliberately mispelled Quote because if I inserted the Q, it wouldn't show how to do it, the program would have quoted my instructions without showing the end or begining quote directive.

This should save you about 8 hours a day of typing, thus freeing your fertile and fertilized mind to type creative, informative comments rather then hours of retyping someone elses words.

[Doug Siebert]

If there are so many courses, so penal, in the Bay area, why would anyone choose to play them ?
I've only played Olympic, San Francisco, Bodega Harbor, Santa Rosa CC and Fountaingrove in the Bay area and north, and Pebble, Spyglass, Spanish Bay and Cypress to the south, although resort courses would be disqualified from my exercise, as would public courses since the golfers that play public courses have no say in removing, altering or adding architectural features to those golf courses.

You answer your own question.  Why would people choose to play them?  Well, because the average person doesn't get to play most of the courses you list, and the ones that are open to anybody are extremely expensive and aren't something most can afford to play on a daily basis.

I can see why you believe that US courses are no more penal than GB&I courses if you exclude all public and resort courses (often the biggest culprits, because they skimp on the land)  And as well it seems you are limiting yourself to only the top courses among the privates.  If I decide to visit the Bay Area I don't have any contacts to get me on courses like Olympic Club, SFGC, Cypress, etc.  I don't begrudge your fortune to be able to play such courses, but I think you may spend too much time on quality courses and don't really understand what people who play primarily public courses see on a regular basis.  And no, public courses aren't all like Bethpage and Torrey Pines

Someone needs to organize a GCA get-together for shitty public courses for the deprived folks like you who only get to play top notch layouts.  We could have it in any state in the Union, any time of the year, so we could easily fit your schedule!  Think of the fun:  Tom Paul would have material for a hundred new topics for all the boneheaded stuff he sees.  Tom Doak could give a talk on the "can it be renovated, or should it be plowed under and started over" question.  Matt Ward could rate it, and we can see if his ratings some find overly harsh perhaps aren't so compared to what he says when he sees a real disaster of a layout.  And Shivas can get a scotch game with roll/re-roll going on so we can enjoy ourselves even on a poorly designed and truly penal course.

[David_Tepper]

Mr. Mucci -

Let me see -

1) You pose a question relative to playing golf in GB&I.
2) That question elicits responses similar in nature from 5 or 6 people, several of whom have played more golf courses in GB&I than you.
3) As those responses are not too your liking, you then challenge our honesty and have the gall to call us contrarian.    

While is appears you enjoy your persona as the cranky old man of gca.com, this time you have outdone yourself. Congratulations!

By the way, if resort and public courses were meant to be excluded your your "exercise," why did you not state that in your initial post? Are you aware that there might be some gca.com participants who play most of their golf of those courses? Please advise us when you do not deem those golfers fit to participate in one of your "exercises."

DT