Love & Hate

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why do Americans LOVE going to the UK to play penal golf courses/features, and HATE to play penal features on their home golf course ?

Is it the contrast, the variety, or just whimping out when challenged, and the notion of "fair" ?

[Brian_Gracely]

Why do Americans LOVE going to the UK to play penal golf courses/features, and HATE to play penal features on their home golf course ?

I'm not sure I'd agree with your basic premise that the courses in the UK are penal, or any more penal than courses in the US.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

I'm interested in how UK (& Ireland) courses are considered penal, but many people (more specifically, travelers) just like to play something different than the usual stuff they play, regardless of their appreciation of the game's origins.

It's just like the anecdotes said on here in the past that folks from the UK who come over here like playing U.S. courses and riding in "buggies," for the novelty of something different.

[SPDB]

I tend to agree with Brian and Scott. My sense is that many travel to Scotland motivated by a romantic idealism, not out of any desire to play penal golf courses.

But I understand your question. Why do people sign up to join or go through great pains to play a golf course that they've watched beat up the best players in the world (e.g. BPB), or promises to in the future.

[THuckaby2]

Methinks both Brian and Scott (and now SPDB) are absolutely right.

First, I too am having a hard time viewing UK links as more penal than most courses we have here.  Sure some links have high rough that means immediate lost ball - and some have deep bunkers that mean pitch out backwards or sideways.  But to me that still pales compared to all the definite OB and acres of water hazards we have here.

Second, Scott is right on that the reason we go there, and they go here, is for the difference.  It always astounds me to hear Scots and Irish marvelling over the wonderful courses at Myrtle Beach, just as much as it astounds them how we go on and on talking about and spend thousands of dollars playing their treeless old courses.  

So Pat, the answer is, Americans aren't going over there because they love penal.  They'll tolerate the penal features they find because the golf is so different, and to those who seek it out, so cool.  Overly penal features at home just become a pain in the butt after a few plays.

TH

[Bill Gayne]

Americans tire of penal golf courses at home because they lack the strategic side that many of the classic old links courses have. Most penal courses in the U.S. are one dimensional with a penal element only. Where's the joy in playing a one dimensional golf course that keeps kicking you in the chins. For the most part in the British Isles, Americans are playing the best courses that combine some penal elements with strategic elements which they aren't accustomed to at home.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

That is a great question---the answers to which may be many and perhaps immensely complex.

If I may, I'd like to suggest that perhaps penal is not the correct thing to look at here. There surely are plenty of American courses and modern ones too that are really penal, probably as penal as most anything that can be found in Europe, old or new. It just may be that most American courses that are really penal are simply penal in very different ways than European courses are and Americans have become used to that.

If there's a distinction in this sense between some European courses and most American courses, I think it's that the European ones are far more "random" (in their penality) or perhaps far more natural in look (in their randomness) and feel than their European counterparts.

Perhaps you should be asking why some Americans seem to enjoy that randomness (perhaps more naturalism too) in European golf and architecture more than what they find over here.

[Brian_Gracely]

I think one of the differences is the UK courses can be penal if the weather is such, but aren't ALWAYS penal as many new American courses are being built.  So there is variety from day to day.  

[Mike Benham]

Let's not forget that Americans will travel within the US to play the penal or "name" courses ...

I believe it is the same ego trip (no pun intended) to travel to and say that you have played at _________ (fill in the blank) whether it is in the US or abroad.

[Matthew Schulte]

Pat:

Great question.  However, I too take issue with the assertion that great links courses are penal.

I go, as has been stated, because links golf is so very different from the golf we are generally able to play in the states.  I tire of playing dial a distance golf, just as I would tire of playing in 30mph winds on a daily basis.  I also tire of the traditional out and back routings where essentially you make hay going out and hang on coming in.  

Not only do we go for variety, we go to connect with the origins of the game.  Romantic...maybe.  For jaded, well travelled golfers, there aren't many places that evoke the goose bumps one experiences when standing on the first tee at The Old Course, North Berwick, Prestwick or several other historic links courses.  Aside from studying the architecture, at the end of the day, we go for the experience.

[THuckaby2]

Matthew:

That is very well said and I was going to say I concur 100%... but I get to the last line....

Speaking just for myself, I have never gone to any links course, or any course anywhere, to study the architecture.  It's all about playing and experience for me.  If some architectural learning occurs - and sometimes it does - it's secondary to the other things.

Yes, I am a weird cat in this group.  But out in the real world... well I'm a weird cat there also for even caring about architecture at all.

 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think we are getting bogged down with the specific wording of the question and missing the spirit of the question: Why do we love certain things in the UK and not in the US?  this could include conditioning, blind shots, penal rough, etc.  I wonder the same thing all the time.  I loved playing Westward Ho!  The sheep ate most of the grass and the greens were slow and bumpy.  If it were here I would complain to no one in particular.  I just have different expectaions when I go to the UK.  I don't want to play the Chart Hills or Druid Hills.  I want to play RCD, TOC,Sunningdale etc.  In turn When I go to Arizona or Nevada, I want to play desert courses not the Shadow Creeks.  The beauty of golf's playing fields are reflected in the diverse landscape of the various parts of the world.

[THuckaby2]

I think we are getting bogged down with the specific wording of the question

Mr. Williamsen, you OBVIOUSLY haven't responded to one of Mr. Mucci's threads before.  The specific wording of his questions is always of vital importance.  You ain't seen parsing 'till you've been in one of these.

Of course you are correct in the spirt of your post, though.

TH

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mr. Huckaby,
Understood.

[Rick Shefchik]

I just have different expectaions when I go to the UK.  

I think that's hitting it on the head. Or, put another way, our rounds in the UK don't "count" the way they do in the U.S. We're not there to pursue our best-ever score or lower our handicap or win an event. We're there for the experience. If only we could more often approach our rounds on our home courses that way.  

[THuckaby2]

Rick:

Dammit, once again I am the weird cat.  Last trip over to Scotland, I played a series of quite "serious" matches over those wonderful links... damn right those rounds "counted"... we were playing for a little money and a LOT of something far more important - bragging and shit-giving rights for the next several years.

You know what?  It was even MORE fun than playing casually there.  Of course I wouldn't recommend most people trying to play for score whilst over there - it is self-defeating without a doubt - but if you can arrange some friendly matches, well... seems to me that's what those courses exist for.

What's even stranger to me is that if I am not playing in a bonafide, organized competition, I DO treat rounds at home here just as you say... they don't count in my mind, I am not trying for a score, etc.

Again, I must be a very weird cat.

TH

[Rick Shefchik]

Tom -- I based my response on my one trip to Scotland, years ago, and my next trip to the UK (hopefully Ireland next fall.)

If I got to visit as often as you do, I'd pay more attention to my score, too.

[THuckaby2]

Tom -- I based my response on my one trip to Scotland, years ago, and my next trip to the UK (hopefully Ireland next fall.)

If I got to visit as often as you do, I'd pay more attention to my score, too.

Touche!
Just do realize I wasn't paying attention to SCORE - I was trying to win matches.  And oh yes, lots of 7s and 8s won holes.
As for me getting over there, well... 5 times in 20 years surely can't be THAT much.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Penal ..... Punitive

How many responding have been in some of those bunkers at TOC, Turnberry, Troon and Carnoustie ?

How many have been in the gorse or deep rough ?

Tommy Williamsen,

You understood the question better than the seasoned GCA.comers.

Tom Huckaby, Brian and Scott,

Romance my ass.

Let's see, when was the last time a guy or group of guys told you that they were going to Scotland to play those courses for the romantic interlude they hoped to have ??

When has anyone returned from a golfing trip to Scotland and informed you that they had one of the great romantic experiences of their life ??

Get with the program, you know what the question's about.

Mike Benham,

What "name" courses would you deem penal in the U.S., that golfer flock to, and how are those courses penal ?

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

A slightly different take but in the same vein ...

why do American golfers who flock to the UK and rave about the firm and fast conditions, but when they return home insist their own courses be kept verdant green with little or no bounce of the ball possible?

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

Hey, don't lump me into that - I never used the word "romantic."  I will say that there is most definitely a different feeling to playing over there, but it is difficult to put into words.  "Romantic" is likely not the best way to describe it, but it's not the worst.

And forgive me but I still do not know really what you're asking about, because I don't find the UK links more penal than most courses over here.

Do you?

I have been in the deep bunkers at each course you mention.  I have found the gorse at the others as well.  Each still sure as hell beats wall to wall OB and water on every hole.  Thus it's tough to make a generalization like "UK courses are more penal".  Yes, most are more penal than Santa Teresa.  But they're sure as hell less penal than PGA West Stadium, or really most condo canyon courses in the Palm Desert area, just to use a familiar US example.

So I don't know what you are asking about.  My only guess is that people do accept these penal attriubutes over there because they are part and parcel of a unique experience, different from what they get at home.  But your questions never have these simple type answers, so that can't be what you are asking for, can it?

TH

[Brian_Gracely]

Tom Huckaby, Brian and Scott,

When has anyone returned from a golfing trip to Scotland and informed you that they had one of the great romantic experiences of their life ??

I got engaged on the steps of the Turnberry hotel with the sun setting over Ailsa Craig.  My wife would probably tell you it was pretty romantic

[Mike Benham]

How many responding have been in some of those bunkers at TOC, Turnberry, Troon and Carnoustie ?

I have, except Turnberry and throw in Prestwick for good measure.  

Have you?

What "name" courses would you deem penal in the U.S., that golfer flock to, and how are those courses penal ?

Most desert courses featuring target golf are more penal than the bunkers you mention.

TPC Sawgrass for the 17th green ...

Mike

[TEPaul]

Again, I think using "penal" as the distinguishing feature or attraction of European courses vs American courses is both misleading and not so interesting. Sure, it might be more difficult to get out of many European bunkers compared to American bunkers but all the water hazards on American courses compared to European courses surely are very penal.

Why many Americans like European courses more than American courses really is an interesting question to consider but limiting it to just "penal" is not the most interesting distinction between European and American courses, in my opinion. I think the love or hate syndrome between Euro and American courses has a whole lot more than just to do with distinctions in penal.

But, hey, Pat likes people to stick closely to his original question and so I have no more to say.

[David_Tepper]

As someone who has played 40+ courses in GB&I and enjoyed it enough to buy a vacation/semi-retirement home there, I cannot resist adding my 2 cents to this discussion.

1) The nature of "penal" - If you are talking about OB, red/yellow hazard stakes, forced carries over water, and general situations (that often times apear to be rather contrived) where one might lose a golf ball and/or be forced to take a penalty stroke, the vast majority of holes I have played on courses in GB&I are free of such obstacles. Generally speaking, if you can find your ball on a course in GB&I, you have a chance of getting it back in play. Obviously, there are pockets of gorse/hay where you may have an unplayable lie or lost ball and bunkers where you may have to play out sideways or backwards.

What makes golf in GB&I more compelling is that there is a certain element of randomness in the outcome of hitting a bad shot. If you hit a shot OB or into a lake in the US, there is no doubt or suspense about your situation. In GB&I, you don't know your predicament until you get to your ball and assess your options.            

2) Romance - I don't think anyone is referring to romantic love here, but rather their romance of and with the game of golf.  Obviously, the option of hitting a wider variety of shots and playing in different conditions is part of this. In the case of myself and my wife, we have also developed enough of a 'romance' with the Highlands (the people, the countryside and the golf) to buy a home there.

Finally, I must say that the initial attractions for me to golf in GB&I were the openess of most golf clubs there to visitor play and lack of pretension found at those clubs. I have been fortunate enough to play 25-30 of the best courses in GB&I (several of which are in the Open Rota) simply by showing up and asking to play. That could never happen here in the US.  Most of those courses are blessedly free of the distractions (security gates, parking lot attendants, carts, cart paths, etc.)  that at times seem to make the game in the US some sort of perverse social ritual.

End of rant!