[Jonathan Cummings]

I played Wren Dale outside of Harrisburg PA this past weekend.  It is quite a nice tract probably earning 5s and 6s and maybe even a 7 or so from the raters who visit.  But I was most impressed by what WD wasn't.

For a team that I believe tends to overdo a site, this is an atypical Mike/Dana effort.  A heathlands design played over a mostly open pasture Wren Dale hugs the natural contours where most all of the dirt moved was used to build and shape the green complexes.  The fairways are generous and lined with tall ball-eating fescues.  The bunkering is muted, understated and situated at more conventional locations.  Green fronts are open and sweeping - closely cut to allow for bump and runs and even off-green putts.   Wren Dale's routing is intimate; the 55 members/owners can ride carts but also elect to carry 8-9 clubs and easily walk the course.  There is a feature densely vegetated creek valley that slices through the property.  Hurdzan/Fry used this valley to the max, crossing over it some nine times including twice on one par four (fifth).  The back nine rolls more and adds variety by introducing a few wooded holes.  As a collection, the two-shotters are the best - asking the player to accomplish a wide variety of tasks.  The par 3s are OK with two fine holes (5 and 11) a soso hole and a questionable hole (13th is disproportionate with its huge green for the 130 yd shot).  Likewise, the par 5s have several good holes but a par of question marks too (the first hole can require a lay-up to a canyon forcing bogie – just too early in the round for this.  The 610 monster 16th has a forced carry in front of the green with almost no fronting landing area – could use more as many players are coming into this hole with a fairway wood for their third shot).  

But mostly Wren Dale is about wind.  It blows here even on sultry summer days and it can come from any direction.  We played in a stern 25-knot wind with threatening skies spitting occasional rain - sound familiar?  While Wren Dale isn't Walton Heath, it does a good job of reminding you of similar English venues.

Purists and better players will love this place.  

Good job Mike and Dana - keep it up.

JC

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jonathan

Thanks for the report. I'm trying to fit this course into my schedule before winter arrives.

For some photos, visit:

www.wrendalegolfclub.com

Steve

[Tom_Doak]

JC:  Since there is a lot of discussion about Ron Whitten's relationship with Hurdzan and Fry on another topic, and the potential for conflict of interest, I just thought I would ask:

Are you still going to have a bit to do with that Hurdzan/Fry course in Idaho where your friend owns the land?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tom - Funny thing happened to that deal.  My friend struck an agreement with the management folks from Mirabel (Celebration?).  As part of the agreement they wrote Mike and Dana a check for the balance of their fee and showed them the road.  Fazio was brought in and designed the course (I have the plans on my desk at home and my friend, who I have snowed into thinking I know something, has asked me to critique them).  I'm still slated to push my mound of dirt around when they break ground in the spring (it's provided my friend with endless amusement.)

Word on the street is that Hurdzan/Fry are hot runners for a hush hush 500 acre project 5 miles due east of the Fazio site - dramatic bluffs looking down into the Wolf Lodge Bay of Lake Coeur d'Alene.  I was going to talk to you about this if we were able to hook up a few weeks ago in Traverve City.  Give me a jingle and I'll tell you all I know (which isn't much).

JC

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jonathan,

So, H/F were the original architects hired for Charbonneau (or whatever it's called) on the east side of the lake?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Scott - they sure were.  H/F made 8 routing plans over a five year period.

The Charonneau name was canned - the place has no name yet.  I suggested that they call it The Aerie.  I was close to getting canned and I don't get paid anything!  

J

[Scott_Burroughs]

I knew of your involvement in a new project on the lake up there, I just didn't know it was that project.

I think a Fazio project should eventually have one of these type names:

Vostinak Ridge or Naccarato Hills

or combine them into Naccarostinak Rock and just say it's a Native American name.  

Emperedan?

 

[Jonathan Cummings]

Naccarostinak Rock !!!

LOL !!!

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

If you have played Hamilton Farm in Gladstone, NJ how would you compare that course with Wren Dale?

It seems from the pictures I have seen of Wren Dale that the tendency to simply overpower the site has been toned down.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think H/F also have a minimalistic course in the Dakotas somewhere.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - I'v have played Hamilton Farms and consider it much more the usual H/F effort - overcooked.  It's a nice piece of property and I believe other architects could have done a better job.  The Wren Dale course is much more a lay-of-the-land design which complements the site well.

Jeff - I'm not familiar with the Dakota course you are referring to.

JC

[Scott_Burroughs]

I think H/F also have a minimalistic course in the Dakotas somewhere.

The H/F Dakota course is featured in a concurrent thread:  "15th at Bully Pulpit" here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=15234

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think H/F also have a minimalistic course in the Dakotas somewhere.

The H/F Dakota course is featured in a concurrent thread:  "15th at Bully Pulpit" here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=15234

So, why can't I make that connection!

[Scott_Burroughs]

I think H/F also have a minimalistic course in the Dakotas somewhere.

The H/F Dakota course is featured in a concurrent thread:  "15th at Bully Pulpit" here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=15234

So, why can't I make that connection!

Hockey withdrawal affecting you?

[Mike_Cirba]

Woof...woof

(Did I hear my name mentioned...is it dinnertime?...mailman?)  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Bill,

Of course you know that I was specifically using the two most outspoken (even if it's warranted) critics of the Faz, regardless of the reasons.  All just funnin'.

Mike,

Just for you, The Links at Cirba Creek National.

Woof.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

If indeed a course is going to be designed by Fazio that is a  variation off of my name, I insist then he build one of those #17 at Shadow Creek waterscaped-par 3's and name it, "The Butt Hole."

Maybe 80 years from now people will celebrate it and its creator and hopefully Tom Marslotov IV will restore it to its full playing charateristics.

Jon, Sorry to hear about the Fazio thing. Surely the H&F course would have a lot more interesting, considering your dealing with two individuals there that don't have nearly the ego as the people in Ashville, or some other North Carolina retired yuppie-pit he is calling home.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tommy - I may be wrong but I think old TF is calling hurricane alley home nowadays....

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Just for you, The Links at Cirba Creek National.

Woof.

Scott;

That's not nearly pretentious or long enough...

I suggest, "The Woodland Links at Cirba Creek National Country Club, Resort, and Housing Development (Wetlands LapDog Course)"

Wait til you see our logo!  

[Jonathan Cummings]

Obi Wan Cirba - I am laughing so hard there are tears rolling down my cheeks!  Add "Raters Comped" to the title!  J

[Forrest Richardson]

I have a minimalist course — several in fact. They are in plan form, all waiting to be built, funded or approved!

[Jonathan Cummings]

Bill - Call Teddy up and get out to see Wren Dale before the snows fly.  I've only seen Hamilton so you would be better armed to critique the differences.  My guess is that you are going to like Wren Dale.  JC

[Brad Klein]

Interesting discussion of their work. I'm not sure, however, that the category of "minimalism" is at all helpful in describing the recent work of Hurdzan and Fry. They are site-specific, as is any technically qualified design team, and able to do what's needed, though admittedly they have been willing to accept some tough sites that pure unreconstructed (!) minimalsts would avoid like the plague. By contrast, Bully Pulpit in Medora, ND, was built for $650,000, excluding irrigation, so that's pretty basic stuff and I'm told it shows - in a good way.

I'd suggest everyone read Hurdzan's new book "Golf Greens" (John Wiley & Sons, 2004). It's very technical in places, but also instructive, and makes the case for incorporating the best available materials, provided they are properly tested and economically sensible. Hurdzan thinks, for example, that soil-based push-up greens can be fine to build today, under certain conditions, as long as you're clear what the strengths and weaknesses of the soils are.

In any case, I don't think the category of "minimalism" is very helpful in judging their work or in deciding whether it's good or not.

[Matthew MacKay]

A good example of the danger in pigeon-holing a certain architect is Devil's Pulpit and Devil's Paintbrush.  These two Hurdzan/Fry courses are a mile apart as the crow flies but worlds apart in style.  Pulpit is like a rapper's gold necklace (one hole has three fairways) while the Paintbrush is more akin to a pearl bracelet; likely one of the funnest courses you could play up here, complete with blind shots, crazy greens and plenty of wind.  I don't believe much dirt was moved at all.  

www.devilspulpit.com

[Mike_Cirba]

I made it out to Wren Dale today and have to say that I'd agree with Jonathan that it is very unlike any Hurdzan/Fry course I've played.

The site itself has some pretty good attributes, but is also intersected by deep ravines that require play as wetlands.  From a shaping perspective, it seems that dirt was only moved in some areas, and visually, the course is very natural, unforced, and appealing.  The bunkering is scant, and the scultping of those bunkers is visually toned-down, with just very basic lines utilized.

The fairways and playing areas are quite wide and forgiving, and the greens themselves are also fairly inviting targets.  Many holes permit run-up approaches, but it's too late in the season to determine if the ground will play F&F enough to allow them to be utilized fullly.  

With a yardage of just over 7000 from the tips, it seems that the slope rating of 137 is a bit high.  Most holes offer plenty of latitude and forgiveness and water only comes into play on the 2nd' hole in the form of a irrigation pond to the right of the green.  Similiarly. woods and OB are scarce.

There is no question that this will be a windy site, but today was a rare still one so I probably didn't get the full gist of how some of the holes might play in a stiff breeze.  Still, mixing the back tees with the blues (at 6600+), I didn't get the sense that the course will be particularly stringent in defending against the better player.  Two of the par fives are easily reachable, and most of the longer par fours play downhill.

The routing seems determined to utilize the ravines as frequently as possible, which leads to a number of forced carries.  The highlight is probably the 5th, which rewards a drive that carries the longest route over the ravine to the right side, and then requires another carry on the approach.  

Visually, the course is a nice break from Hurdzan/Fry's often "busy" style, but I found myself wishing that the greens were smaller, more tilted or contoured, or made for more exacting tests.  While Wren Dale is a very nice addition to central PA golf, it's missing something on the "excite the senses" scale that the best courses provide.  One leaves wondering if the focus on routing the course to maximize the use of the ravines didn't leave too many of the other holes to be much too routine and parallel.  

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