The "Roadin" hole

[Rick Shefchik]

Your opinions, if you will, on this par 3 hole on a new course (set to open next spring) in Minnesota:

 


The hole plays 150 yards from the back tees. The architect -- who shall go nameless for now -- calls this hole "The Roadin" (pronounced the same as the name of the French sculptor who created "The Thinker") There's a Road Hole-style bunker guarding the front left portion of the green (though not nearly as deep); the ocarina-shaped green has a ridge running through the center, from back to front; the green slopes both towards the back left and front right from the ridge.

This creates the possibility of a putt from the front right portion of the green to the back left -- sort of like #17 at Pebble Beach -- that has to flirt with the bunker. The architect wanted the course to maintain the grass between the bunker and the green as putting surface so the bunker would be more of a collection feature, but he's not going to get his wish -- they will maintain it as fringe.

Here's another shot of the green:



Any thoughts? Have you seen a green like this before? Will it work?

 

[Brian_Gracely]

Neat looking hole and interesting design concept.  Is the long stuff directly behind the green and OB/Lateral?  I could see that if the ground got firm and you tried to run it up that there is a 50/50 chance you run it OB long vs. on the green.  Might discourage the run-up shot.....not sure if there was intent to make that an important aspect or not.  

Also a very cool looking piece of land.  Looks like a field where somebody just mowed an area to green-height and left the rest alone.  

[Dan Kelly]

I believe the architect is a poor speller.

It should be Roadan -- combining elements of the Road Hole (the bunker's orientation) with elements of a Redan (the fallaway).

All in all, the Roadan looks to be a hole for the Thinkers among us.

I believe the answer to Brian's question is: Lateral hazard, not OB.

[John_Cullum]

The architect wanted the course to maintain the grass between the bunker and the green as putting surface so the bunker would be more of a collection feature, but he's not going to get his wish -- they will maintain it as fringe.

I like the unnamed archtects idea. The threat of putting into a bunker is among the ultimate in strategery.

[TEPaul]

Sure that green should work well. If the ground in the approach is firm it could work very well. Looks like one play might be to bounce the ball in real near that bunker Hard to tell the nuances in a photo but it looks like an easy pin/hard pin type of green. Easy pin right and hard pin left. Interesting options to the hard pin left of going over the bunker or playing safe right and putting over the ridge. This looks like a hole that could be even more interesting and varied if a tee were possible a few dozen yards or more to the right. That alone would create a whole different set of choices through a very interesting look and orientation.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Rick,

It is a shame there is so much maintained area between the tee and the green, it looks like the dreaded bluegrass.  I would hope that maybe the bit of scraggily stuff you see to the right of the photo ( and of course in back of the green) could come completely across the hole and then back to and around the tees.  That would leave a bit of fairway to bounce onto to and hopefully onto the green.  Right now your grandmother could hit a worm burner right off the tee with no consequences.  Besides with the native in front, again leaving a bit of fairway for the bounce shot and the native in back I think would raise the level of intimidation and make for a pretty darn good looking hole.  This smells of a mangement company conspiracy.  No tight mow next to bunker, no native off the tee, let's keep every body happy.

How could you lose the fringe fight so early in the process before the course even opens? The archtect designed it that way and now it is the super's responsibility to figure out how to maintain it to enhance the design.  Sounds like they need a super with a can do attitude.

[Jeff_McDowell]

There seems to be enough questions about the hole that deserve comment, so I'll out myself as the architect.

Thanks to Rick for coming up with the idea of posting the photo, and having the technical skills to do it.

Kelly, It's not a management company conspiracy, or a superintendent that can't get the job done. It's simply a matter of a real small maintenance budget. During design he agreed to mow the bunker at green height, but then when everything got seeded he saw how much fairway he had to maintain and how little resources he had, he changed his mind. Of course I'm disappointed, but I also understand his dilemma. I'll keep working it, though. Maybe I can get him back.

I also agree with your comment about the natives. On the left side of the photo you see a slightly different color and texture of grass on the hillside - that's native grasses. They just happened to mow it recently, so it looks like bluegrass. It's going to be hard to get the membership to allow the natives to come into play. The course is run by a number of real good German farmers, and they like things neat and orderly.

TEP,
Great minds must think alike. The photo was taken from the back tee, which is the furthest tee to the left. The forward tee is far right, and not in the photo. The view from that tee just begs a runup shot. There was no way to get the back tee further right, because there is a ditch immediately to the right. We'll see if they keep the ground dry enough to allow that shot. The soils are a nice loam which is great for growing grass, but isn't the greatest for firm and fast.

Dan Kelly,
Thanks for you comments, but please try to stay on topic!!! I've never claimed to be a good speller.

Brian,
I hadn't thought about discouraging the runup with the hazard behind the green. It will be interesting to see how people play the hole. The runup is an option, especially when the prevailing wind (straight into the hole) is strong.

Thanks for the comment about the course looking natural. I appreciate that. It was one of the things that intrigued me about the site from the beginning. We didn't get the job by selling minimalism in design, but the budget was extremely small, so you figure out how to make the most of what you're given. In areas like this hole, we moved some dirt, but in a couple other areas, we moved a lot of dirt to get through a hill.

We were extremely lucky to use the same contractor Jeff Brauer had to build both Giant's Ridge courses. Jeff taught them well, because they knew how to build a course when they came to this job. At the same time, they are contractors, and they want to build things. The first green we worked on was built four times, because they were building it instead of shaping it. I know this isn't explained well, but it's the best I can come up with.

[A_Clay_Man]

Jeff, If the hole is 150 from the tips, why not chop off most of that fairway? As Kelly hinted, it seems rather redundant, and the net savings could allow for the area between bunker and green to be maintained properly. Plus, it would look much more island like, with less run-up fairgreen.

What's the yardage from the forward tees? 120? Asking a 36 handicapper to hit a shot of this length is not unreasonable, is it?

[Andy Hughes]

Right now your grandmother could hit a worm burner right off the tee with no consequences.

Kelly, I wonder if that is a bad thing or a good thing?  I am just in the middle of reading AMack's 'Lost Manuscript' or 'Spirit of St Andrews' or whatever the official title is, and he says that a perfect hole could be played entirely with a putter!
Should my grannie be punished for her feeble dribbler?

[TEPaul]

"I am just in the middle of reading AMack's 'Lost Manuscript' or 'Spirit of St Andrews' or whatever the official title is, and he says that a perfect hole could be played entirely with a putter!
Should my grannie be punished for her feeble dribbler?"

Andy:

Alister MacK did say that but obviously C.B. Macd didn't agree with him at all and that's precisely why C.B. put a pond off the tee on his Eden hole at NGLA! His reasoning was specifically so no little old grannie could dribble the ball to the green with a putter.

But we all know C.B couldn't stand little old grandmothers anyway. He preferred Broadway show girls and pretty little college girls who were looking to pick up a few bucks to work their way through law school and such who'd come out and spend long weekends at the "Hen House" and party with him on his estate across from NGLA.

[JohnV]

Wouldn't it be great to sit in a room and listen to the good Doctor and CBM debate issues like this?

The hole reminds me of the 12th at Bandon Dunes.  It also has a road bunker, although the right front of the green is a lot smaller there.  Also there is death over the green.

Here is a picture of it:

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Andy,

It is never a good thing to punish your grandmother but I think one can expect a minimal level of competance on a golf course when considering a situation as I have described.  The Bandon photo is more like it, but boy want a wonderful green that would have been to have falling away from the shot opening up that ocean view behind the green so the horizon line made it seem it just fell into the ocean.  

Jeff,

If the maintenace budget is that small then less mowing of rough area certainly would help, then maybe he could spend a little of the savings mowing fairway closer to the edge of the bunker.  You never really save money in these situations, you just reallocate resources to more important design features like what you wanted next to the bunker.  I really like the hole you have designed, Rick just seemed to be asking for input.

[TEPaul]

"Wouldn't it be great to sit in a room and listen to the good Doctor and CBM debate issues like this?"

Maybe, maybe not. There's always the chance C.B might try to beat Alister to within an inch of his life as C.B apparently did to that poor soul who said something to him he must not have liked at the bar at Shinnecock causing C.B to be suspended from the premises for a time. But C.B apparently got in the last lick as on his way out of Shinnecock he stole their chef and took him over to NGLA!

One really sad thing I heard from a couple of multi generation local Southampton families who probably know the history of NGLA as well as anyone was in the last year or two of C.B's life he was pretty much persona non grata at NGLA too!

[JohnV]

For those who haven't been there (if there are any left here) the picture of Bandon was taken from over by the back tees.  The front tees are to the left of the dirt path and make it appear more like the picture above.

[Jeff_McDowell]

Kelly,
Rick did ask for input, and I appreciate yours. I really like hearing what others think. Sometimes you get caught up in your own ideas, so it's nice to hear what others come up with.

Adam and Kelly,
One reason I didn't pull the natives across the fairway, is that I'm partial to the notion of playing the hole with a putter. Especially on this course, which has a lot of older members that may struggle to hit it 100 yards. Another reason is that two of the four previous holes have forced carries at the green and another has a forced carry at the tee. I know this contradicts my desire to play a hole with a putter, but the forced carries were necessary due to topography, two streams, a wetland, and permitting.

[Brian_Gracely]

Can we see some more pictures of this course, or at least give us the name of it?  It's nice to have some variety of architects from time to time around here.

[Andy Hughes]

It is never a good thing to punish your grandmother but I think one can expect a minimal level of competance on a golf course when considering a situation as I have described.  

Kelly,yes, I am sure you are right (and good words to live by re Grannie  ), but I think it interesting that MacKenzie held that up as one of his ideals.  I have not yet decided for myself if I agree with it or not.  It certainly would make any number of 'great' holes fail to be ideal in his eyes.

[Jeff_McDowell]

Brian,
The name of the course is the Zumbrota Golf Club, and it's in Zumbrota, Minnesota. They have a nine-hole course that dates back to the early 1920's. This nine-hole addition is part of a housing development. The course is a core routing that for the most part sits in a large valley between the homes. There aren't any road crossings within the course.

I have more photos. I'll talk to Rick about getting more pictures posted.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff McDowell,

I figured that was Zumbroa from your discussions.  It looks great, and yes, Park is a good contrator, although someone (most likely Art HIlls) between the two GR courses also taught them something.....

By the way, the Quarry has a "Rhodent" hole, but the architectural feature is was named after is most likely shoveled up and in a landfill by now......

[Jeff_McDowell]

I remember the rodent hole. I'm sure that little fellow made a nice meal for some crows and a lot of maggots.

Would you like to share the story, or should I embellish it appropriately?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

What's to embellish?  Some crazed squirrel decided to commit suicide by running under my rear tire.  That absolves me of all blame in the matter.  But, since he didn't die quickly, you drove up, got out of the car, and stomped that suckers head flat, with a splat.  You said you were putting him out of his misery, but I think you have a rhodent complex of some kind.

And I'm sure Dan and Brad will back me up 100% on that one!

[Jeff_McDowell]

That's a very good embellishment. I love it. Let's go with it.

[Rick Shefchik]

Per Brian Gracely's request (and delayed by my own procrastination), here are some more photos of Jeff McDowell's Zumbrota, Minn., project.

12th hole, a short, uphill par 4 -- hogsback:



12th hole, from behind the green:



15th hole -- the green looks an awful lot like the Roadan (or Roadin) to me:



16th hole -- from the back tee:



16th hole -- from the forward tee:



18th hole -- left side of fairway:



18th hole -- right side of fairway:



18th green:



I wish I knew how to resize photos on Mystyic Colorlab so that these were easier to see on this site, but this is the extent of my technical expertise.

The Zumbrota course doesn't open till next year, but I walked it with Jeff and Dan Kelly last summer, and can confidently say there are not many trees, the first few holes are strongly influenced by a hillside, and there will be some very interesting strategic elements.

Zumbrota is a good hour south of the Twin Cities in the middle of farm country. This course might be a good reason to make the drive.