Bad Ross Courses

[Mike Hendren]

On another thread, with Barney's hook firmly planted in Tom Paul's cheek, TEPaul writes:

Ross was high production too and some courses in his name are very good while others just aren't at all!

What are some real Ross stinkers?

Miike

[Brian_Gracely]

Miike,

Can you actually evaluate this considering how many of Ross' courses have been changed over the years (ie. bunkers filled in, greens incorrectly maintained, etc.)?  It's a little bit like asking who is the least graceful 38yr journeyman center in the NBA?

[Mike Hendren]

Brian,

Let's identify the stinkers first.  Then we'll debate about the extent to which the original was compromised.

FWIW,

I am totally speculating that Ross built more 5's on the Doak scale than every other architect active in America over the past century combined.  I could be wrong.  

Mike

[Brian_Gracely]

And of all of those 5s, how many are non-walkable and not fun to play?

[Brian_Gracely]

And Miike, you need to narrow down your hunt to "stinkers at the time they were built", otherwise you might get someone saying Seminole, Oakland Hills or Oak Hill.

[JakaB]

Gulf Stream, GC.  in Delray Beach, FL

[JakaB]

Brunswick CC.  Brunswick, GA

[TEPaul]

A Ross course my Dad belonged to and played regularly---Daytona Beach C.C. wasn't much---that's for sure.

Gulf Stream G.C.? I've played hundreds and hundreds of rounds there and it's OK but certainly nothing great. It was obviously designed as a nice little member's course although it does have two holes Ross himself wrote about as two of his personal favorites.

Jeffersonville G.C. right here in Norristown? Definitely nothing special at any time. Ross likely never even saw the place. Most think it was built by J.B. McGovern, his local foreman and Wynnewood office manager.

Shall I go on John B. and Mike Hendren or are you beginning to see the dangers of high production of even extremely talented architects?

[ChipRoyce]

I'd like to suggest Newton Commonwealth, Newton, MA.

[Mike Hendren]

Shall I go on John B. and Mike Hendren or are you beginning to see the dangers of high production of even extremely talented architects?

Tom,

Please continue.  4 out of over 400 does not yet make your case.

Mike

[Paul Richards]

There are no bad Ross courses, just some's better than others!  

[Paul_Turner]

I've certainly been impressed with Ross courses so far, I admit I've only seen a few of the famous ones.

Actually Jeffersonville has recently been restored (you can see this in the link below...bunkers).  Certainly doesn't look like a dog track:

http://www.westnorritontwp.org/coursetour.htm

[JakaB]

Is North Shore really that good...

[Martin Del Vecchio]

I'd like to suggest Newton Commonwealth, Newton, MA.

Known to some as "Newton Commonplace".  I read that much of the original real estate on this course was sold to housing developers, and the course was redesigned and rerouted.  As a result, it has some pretty bizzah holes.

[tlavin]

North Shore is pretty good, but it isn't a Ross course.  Colt, Allison and MacKenzie are credited with the design.  They have lengthened the course recently and, more significantly, they have rebuilt the bunkers, which had lost much of their old-time flavor.  They look terrific now.  I would venture to say that the only real problem with North Shore is one they can't fix: the land is pretty flat and uninteresting.

[Paul Richards]

barney

>Is North Shore really that good...

if you are referring to the one in chicago, it's not a ross.

[JakaB]

I thought I played a Ross course in Highland Park with 27 holes....I always forget the name...

[tlavin]

Northmoor.  Never played there, but the reviews are mixed, even after a partial renovation project.

[JakaB]

Northmoor is it.....my sincerest apologies to all the fine members of North Shore....I had always heard great things about the course and after remembering my round at Northmoor was utterly and unexcusably confused.   note: I didn't like Northmoor much..

[Paul Richards]

the nine that has been restored by rick jacobson turned out very well.  northmoor would be well served to complete his plans, although i understand internal squabbling and politics have put the project on indefinite hold...  

[tlavin]

Northmoor is it.....my sincerest apologies to all the fine members of North Shore....I had always heard great things about the course and after remembering my round at Northmoor was utterly and unexcusably confused.   note: I didn't like Northmoor much..

I think you would enjoy North Shore.  It certainly is a man-sized golf course with a nice variety of holes.  It's relatively easy to get on and definitely worth a visit if you're in town.  

Here's the more interesting query about this post:  Where are the responses to the request for bad Ross courses?  There must be dozens of stinkers around the country.  After all, there are a bunch that Ross laid out without ever making it to the site.  I know that there are a bunch or Ross-lovers here, but there must be some level of objectivity that can allow some criticism.

I'm no Ross expert, but I'll opine that Evanston, in the Chicago area is nothing special.  I don't think it's a "bad" course necessarily, but it could really use a re-do.  They are currently in the middle of a battle royale on that subject.

[michael j fay]

Which Gulf Stream is offensive, the one that Ross designed or the Wilson , Lee redesign or the final product of the Mark Mahannah?

I personally don't care for some of the Ross courses I have played, yet in every instance there has been some interloper over the years. Can you blame Ross? Perhaps, maybe these were stinkers before the rework, but I doubt it.

As for the Brunswick Country Club in Brunswick,Georgia there is the matter of 50 years of accumulated top-dressing on the greens that makes the course nearly unplayable (certainly the greens have very limited cupping area).

I have seen the original green drawings at Brunswick and the greens were at least 100% larger than they are today. The greens really need an enema of sorts.

I played Brunswick with Architect Kris Spence and we agreed that if the greens were stripped and shaped to the original and the fairway bunkering were returned it would be a really good course. Apparently the local players think the same way. Unfortunately, dollars are tight and the local influence of the Davis Love Co. may prevent this.

[A.G._Crockett]

I walked Brunswick C.C. with two buddies in March of '03, and enjoyed it thoroughly.  It is not necessarily a great course, for reasons ably explained above by Michael Fay, but it is by no means "a stinker" even with the current green situations.  It just isn't where the $ are in the Brunswick/St. Simons/Sea Island area anymore.

[Mike Hendren]

Here's the more interesting query about this post:  Where are the responses to the request for bad Ross courses?  There must be dozens of stinkers around the country.  After all, there are a bunch that Ross laid out without ever making it to the site.  I know that there are a bunch or Ross-lovers here, but there must be some level of objectivity that can allow some criticism.

Precisely.

I count up to six thus far with at least half of those controverted.  If we can only come up with 1% or so, doesn't that put a lot of pressure on the boutique shops?  Why, if they produce a single bad course, I'm estimating they'll need to hit 80 in a row to match Ross's 1% stinker factor! At four a year, that's 20 years of prefection to match The Donald.

My gosh - we've already learned that Tiger's not Jack.

Mike

[Paul Richards]

terry

>I'm no Ross expert, but I'll opine that Evanston, in the Chicago area is nothing special.

You may be correct in your judgement as it exists today.  It is horribly over-treed - tons of cottonwoods, willows, evergreens and other 'garbage' trees abound.  

That being said, I have many friends out there, and would hate to lose my guest privileges, so I'll explain the process of how it got to the state where:

> it could really use a re-do

on this point, you are correct.

However,

>They are currently in the middle of a battle royale on that subject.

True.

The fact is that today, it's not a 'great' course, but it is fun to play and is certainly a challenging par 70 of 6600 yards from the tips.

Underneath the canopy lies a routing that demontrates the genius of Ross.  He built an interesting golf course on a tract of land that would make a great Wal-Mart parking lot - dead flat.

Over the years, many of Ross' features were removed by well-intentioned, but misguided green committees, culminating in a Nicklaus redo in the early '80's that turned this interesting Ross course into just another rather 'blah' parkland course.