Greywalls by Mike DeVries check out this comment

[ed_getka]

I was talking to Mike yesterday when we were watching the college boys compete at Meadow Club. I asked how Greywalls was being received and he responded that someone responded along these lines. Greywalls is Kingsley Club x 3, and is better than Crystal Downs and Oakland Hills.
   Mike knows the guys name, but doesn't know his background, and the message was relayed to him via the pro at Marquette GC if memory serves.
    I know Mike has been excited about this project and thinks the course turned out very well. To say the course is Kingsley x3 certainly caught my attention. If anyone sees the course please post your thoughts.

[THuckaby2]

Interesting... I just played Meadow Club last week and I was hoping the subject came up so I could comment on it.  I must say that course is in FANTASTIC shape, and some of the greens are just mind-boggling.  I'm thinking in particular #1, 3, 4, 5, 15, 16, 17 (just off the top of my head).  I don't remember enough about Meadow Club to say how it compares to how it was, though.  Can anyone list the changes Mike made?

I also hope I didn't tear up the course too much and ruin it for the youngsters.  

As for these other courses, heck who gets out of California enough to see any of them?

Just kidding.  Greywalls intrigues me to no end.  But then again, so does Kingsley Club and Crystal Downs.  Some day.... oh who the hell am I kidding.  Maybe when the kids grow up.

TH

[Robert Thompson]

Intrigued by the remark, I checked the web site for the course... some construction and photos after seeding can be found at:

http://marquettegolfclub.com/public/G_Course_Layout.htm

Robert

[Jeff_Mingay]

I worked with Mike a bit at Greywalls.

It's a spectacular place, featuring impressive views of Lake Superior, some significant elevation change, and massive rock outcroppings throughout the course.

I haven't seen the course with grass on it yet. But I can confidently say, there are a number of outstanding holes at Greywalls. 1, 2, 7, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 18 were my favourites in the dirt.    

The front nine plays over some difficult, rocky terrain. Then, at the 11th, the course heads into a sandy valley for six holes (the par 4 12th and par 5 13th are remarkable, in my opinion). I think Mike's routing turned a very difficult property into a very good golf course.

It's different than Kinglsey. But in many ways, just as impressive.

[cary lichtenstein]

Which is it?

Greywalls or Meadows or Marquette

Where is it?

Is it new or a renovation?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Cary,

Greywalls is a brand new Mike DeVries designed course at Marquette Golf & Country Club in the city of Marquette, Michigan, way north in the UP (upper peninsula).

I think the course is scheduled to open for play sometime next season.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Greywalls' layout:



The web site linked above has tons of pics.

Here's some pics of Greywalls from DeVries' web site:








like the tilt and undulations in that green



http://www.devriesdesigns.com/greywalls.shtml

[George Pazin]

Too bad they can't keep it like this! It looks like one of Paul Turner's finds in the UK.

[cary lichtenstein]

Interesting location, north of the Wisc state line on the west side of Lake Michigan.

Are there any other good courses in that area?

Looks like excellent topography

[ed_getka]

Since I will definitely be making a trip to check this course out, I was wondering how far it is from Lawsonia Links which I also really want to see? Paging Dick Daley.

Cary,
   It is the Greywalls course at Marquette GC. The Meadow Club reference is to an old Mackenzie course out here just north of San Francisco that Mike is restoring.

Tom,
   Most of what Mike has done is to bring the greens back out to where Mackenzie had them and to redo the bunkering. He still has #13, 15, and #7 to finish up. He has been able to convince them to get rid of some trees, and he is hoping for a bunch more to come out. Mike is hoping to put in some new bunkering between #13 and 15 which are parallel short par 5's, which would certainly be more interesting than the straight line of trees that is there now. #4 fairway has been widened back out to the left as it was originally and the fairway bunkering was restored. #3 green only had one picture to work from so Mike had to make an educated guess to what was there before. I think the green he did which is bisected by a swale that goes about 3/4 of the way up the middle of the green came out well. Apparently some of the members are grumbling about it, but for a 380 yard slightly uphill hole I see no reason why you can't have a challenging green for what is a short iron approach for most golfers. It was fun to watch the college kids struggling to get down in two putts when they hit their approach to the wrong part of the green. Most of these kids were coming in from 80-110 yards, but with the hole being uphill just enough to not give them a look at the green surface they had trouble executing their shots properly. -6 for 3 rounds won the tournament.

[RJ_Daley]

Marquette is about 3.5hours north of Green Bay.  Lawsonia is about 1.5 hours south.  But, it is a senic trip...

Actually, I've only made that run to Marquette in hockey season when my kid played there a few times.  I don't know what the place looks like without 40 inches of snow!  

[Jeff_Mingay]

Marquette G&CC has a really interesting nine holes designed by Wm. Langford, too.

The Langford nine is in rough shape architecturally at present, but the original routing and all nine greens are there waiting to be restored. Some of the greens are really, really good - Raynor-esque, pushed up with steep sides and bold interior contour.

The club has Langford's original map for the course, which shows some neat bunkering schemes as well (all missing today). Eventually, they should allow Mike to restore the Langford course, and meld the David Gill designed nine with it. Marquette G&CC would be quite a place for golf with Greywalls and the restored Langford course!

[THuckaby2]

Tom,
   Most of what Mike has done is to bring the greens back out to where Mackenzie had them and to redo the bunkering. He still has #13, 15, and #7 to finish up. He has been able to convince them to get rid of some trees, and he is hoping for a bunch more to come out. Mike is hoping to put in some new bunkering between #13 and 15 which are parallel short par 5's, which would certainly be more interesting than the straight line of trees that is there now. #4 fairway has been widened back out to the left as it was originally and the fairway bunkering was restored. #3 green only had one picture to work from so Mike had to make an educated guess to what was there before. I think the green he did which is bisected by a swale that goes about 3/4 of the way up the middle of the green came out well. Apparently some of the members are grumbling about it, but for a 380 yard slightly uphill hole I see no reason why you can't have a challenging green for what is a short iron approach for most golfers. It was fun to watch the college kids struggling to get down in two putts when they hit their approach to the wrong part of the green. Most of these kids were coming in from 80-110 yards, but with the hole being uphill just enough to not give them a look at the green surface they had trouble executing their shots properly. -6 for 3 rounds won the tournament.

Ed - thanks for the lowdown.  THis is all great stuff.

It's gonna be a tough sell to take down the treens between 13 and 15, isn't it?  Those are some HUGE old trees, and while it would make strategic sense and most in here would love it (redanman would have paroxysms of joy), well... both holes become a LOT easier unless you make the bunkers VERY VERY severe... and in the end I'm not sure that's a net gain... In any case, the members aren't gonna go for this, are they?

Re#3, to call that a swale is like calling John Kavanaugh eccentric.    Man that green is incredible and it doesn't surprise me at all that some members are grumbling.  We had a back left pin the other day and let's just say that coming from the front right, as I did, it's a good example of a green where Crenshaw and I are on equal footing because God himself couldn't have gotten it to within 10 feet, so odds are we're all gonna 3jack.  It does take an open mind to accept that as "fun" (which I did, btw - I thought it was hilarious and one heck of a putting challenge).  Remember also that is "only" 380 yards, but it's pretty severely uphill... it's 2 extra clubs at least to allow for the hill on the approach, I think.  Also you don't get much roll on the tee shot.  So sure, one can get it to 130 in (or less for the big bombers), but the other day I had 135 to the middle, 145 to the back, playing 165 because of the hill.  That ain't no short iron.  Sure I don't hit it that far, but I have to believe I am longer than average, so I don't buy that that hole is a "short iron in for most golfers."  And given that it's "get it on the right shelf or 3 putt 9 times out of 10", well... I can understand the grumbling.  That hole just plays VERY VERY hard now, whereas I do remember it before, it was tough enough but the green didn't have the swale, so it was doable.  Heck I love the hole and it and #16 are the ones that stick in memory most and make me want to go back and play there right now.... But as I say, I can understand the grumbling.

Sorry for the tangent on to Meadow Club.  Now back to the great state of Wisconsin.

TH

[Tom_Doak]

Ed:

I don't quite get your original post.  Whose quote is that?  I don't think Mike would say it directly about his own work, and I'm a bit surprised he would repeat it, considering how much he respects Crystal Downs.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   Thanks for pointing out how what I wrote was confusing.
  Mike did not say that. He was telling me what someone else said. Mike does not know this guy personally, but does know what the guys name is if you are interested. Mike most surely would not make that statement about his own course. As I noted above, Mike has been excited about this property and the course he built on it, but he hasn't compared it to Kingsley or any of his other courses. Given Mike's love for Crystal Downs I doubt he would ever think he built a better course than CD.
   I only brought this up in the first place so that when one of the treehouse can get up there, they will let us know what they think. Greywalls can't possibly live up to the hyperbole of the above comment, given how good Kingsley and CD are. But if it even comes close it will certainly be worth seeing. I think Jeff Mingay's post sounds like a more reasonable assessment.
   I have not seen Greywalls in person, but I am intrigued to see it sooner rather than later, having seen the excitement that Mike and Dan Lucas (Kingsley super) exhibited when talking about Greywalls.
   

[ed_getka]

Jeff,
  Since you have seen the property what makes #12 and 13 remarkable in your opinion? What are the specific features? What is going on with the greens and surrounds?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ed,

For my tastes, the 12th and 13th holes at Greywalls occupy the section of the golf course property most ideally suited for the game. It's sandy, gently rolling, and sparsely treed over there.

In my view, those holes exhibit a simple elegance because Mike left things relatively simple. Both holes exemplify how a smart routing results in very good natural holes that don't need much in the way of artificial construction to make them interesting to both look at, and play.

To be honest, I haven't seen the finished greens and surrounds. So I can't comment on those features.  

[Mike_DeVries]

Tom,
   Thanks for pointing out how what I wrote was confusing.
  Mike did not say that. He was telling me what someone else said. Mike does not know this guy personally, but does know what the guys name is if you are interested. Mike most surely would not make that statement about his own course. As I noted above, Mike has been excited about this property and the course he built on it, but he hasn't compared it to Kingsley or any of his other courses. Given Mike's love for Crystal Downs I doubt he would ever think he built a better course than CD.
   I only brought this up in the first place so that when one of the treehouse can get up there, they will let us know what they think. Greywalls can't possibly live up to the hyperbole of the above comment, given how good Kingsley and CD are. But if it even comes close it will certainly be worth seeing. I think Jeff Mingay's post sounds like a more reasonable assessment.
   I have not seen Greywalls in person, but I am intrigued to see it sooner rather than later, having seen the excitement that Mike and Dan Lucas (Kingsley super) exhibited when talking about Greywalls.
   

For the record, what Ed has written is correct.  Ed and I were watching the college kids play and talking about work.  Ed asked about how everything was going and I relayed what I had heard third-hand -- I wasn't saying it was true, but was excited that someone, however qualified or not, would say that about Greywalls, especially since it is so young and only 9 holes were open for play this fall.  It is flattering to be compared to something that is a known quantity, whether that comparison is valid or not -- that was the basis of my statement to Ed.  

I hope this clarifies the content and look forward to hearing what GCAer's have to say about Greywalls once they get there.

All the best,

Mike

[Jim Franklin]

Mike -

When is the best time to visit and play in Marquette? I have a client that I need to see in Marquette and would love to see Greywalls.

[John Morrissett]

I was able to see (but not play) Greywalls Friday.  It was most impressive, and I will no doubt spend much of the long Wisconsin winter thinking about returning to play it next year.

Some comments (and please keep in mind they are made by someone who spent about 90 minutes, mostly in a cart, on a chilly, rainy afternoon there):

* Greywalls has some of the boldest undulations in fairways and greens I have seen.  The greens look extremely interesting.  I can't wait to see how both the fairways and greens play in practice.  If you like the 16th at Cape Breton, you will love Greywalls!

*  As you can tell from the pictures, there is a lot of rock there.  Given the exposed rock that is a feature of the course (and contributed to the name) and the, at times, severe terrain, Mike showed good restraint with the bunkering (heck, half the bunkers may be on the 11th and 13th holes!) as the property and routing provide the variety, interest, and challenge.  

*Given the strong following of the Kingsley Club on this site, I predict a similar reaction to Greywalls.  It just takes a little more effort for most to get there (although you can fly to Marquette from Detroit, Chicago, and Milwaukee).

* Overall, a very fun-looking course that has me itching to return.

[ed_getka]

John,
   Thanks for the feedback. I look forward to hearing your thoughts again after you play it next year.

[Mike_DeVries]

Mike -

When is the best time to visit and play in Marquette? I have a client that I need to see in Marquette and would love to see Greywalls.

Jim,

The course had the front nine open this fall, but it is closed now.  The full 18 will be open next year -- when is the best time to play?  That will depend on the winter and spring -- 2004 was not very good until June (long winter and no spring) and I would say that June -Sept. is very good weather in Marquette.  Of course, it is next to Lake Superior, so you can have cold days in the summer, too, but that also prevents it from being 100 degrees -- something I prefer.  If you are headed to Marquette in the near future, I am sure it could be arranged for you to tour the course -- contact me if you would like to.

John,

Glad you made it up -- too bad about the weather.  Thanks for the comments!

Mike

[Jim Franklin]

Mike -

Thank you very much I will keep you posted as to my trip. I know I want to see Kingsley and Crystal Downs sometime as well, But I need to get to Marquette most importantly for business.

[Brian_Sleeman]

I'm the assistant professional at Marquette GC (site of Mike's Greywalls course), and I'll try to answer a few questions I noticed in this thread...

Regarding our playing season, typically we open the old 18 (now called "The Heritage") in mid-April (depending of course on the weather) and shut down October 31.  The snow doesn't leave Greywalls for an extra week or two in the spring, so I'm betting we won't have it open this year until the first week of May at the absolute earliest.  We do get our cold days during the summer but it's usually quite comfortable from late May through mid-September.  The fall colors are at their peak around the first week of October (and provide an extra eyeful on Greywalls), and this last fall was unseasonably warm.  In my opinion, fall is the best time to play in this area, even if you do have to throw on an extra layer.

Regarding the original Langford 9, these are now mixed in with the modern layout, so to play the original 9, one would have to play the following in the order given on the current course:

10 - 11 - 7 - 8 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 12 - 13

As Jeff Mingay has pointed out, these holes have changed from their original conditions, including the shortening of the 13th (the original 9th) by about 50 yards as the original tee shot used to carry across Grove Street.  If you have played or ever do play the Heritage course, look for the storm shelter to the right of the 12th green and you will be looking at the old position of the 13th tee.  This made the hole much more difficult than it is in its current state, though the green setting is still the most treacherous on the course and makes it one of the funnest holes we have.

As for testaments about the Greywalls course, I played the front nine twice this past fall (we limited play due to the sensitive condition of the turf), and I can say with no doubt in my mind that it's the most thrilling course I've ever set foot on.  I gave tours on an almost daily basis for the two years prior to its opening, and seeing it was nothing like playing it.  I can't remember any other round in my life providing the kind of excitement I was faced with on each shot on Greywalls, and here in late January I can easily recall every shot I took in my two 9's.  I can also tell you that in my total 18 holes I used every club in my bag.

All that said, the back nine is probably the better of the two, with less rock outcroppings but more of Mike's bread-and-butter design.  I can't wait to play it!

Hope to see some of you GCA'ers out there in '05.

Someone asked if there were any other good courses in the area.  Timberstone in Iron Mountain (about 90 minutes southwest of Marquette) is a fun track that has received some notoriety from the golf press, and Wild Bluff near Sault Ste. Marie has been the host of a Canadian tour event for the last few years.  Those are the two that get the most recognition, but my favorite other U.P. course would have to be Indian Lake GC in Manistique.  None come close to Greywalls, but they're worth checking out if you're headed our way.

[ed_getka]

Brian,
   Thanks for the feedback. I'll look you up to say hi when I make it out your way.