Wannamoisett CC, Oct. 14th

[Peter_Herreid]

To any interested GCA'ers:

I will be visiting Wannamoisett at 10am next Thursday, 10/ 14, and have the opportunity to bring another player with me.  I am very much looking forward to exploring this great old track, particularly in what may be close to peak foliage...

If you might be interested in joining me, please drop me an e-mail or an IM for more details.  In the interest of disclosure, I am a 13 HCP and, like our most famous Seattle Mariner Ichiro, I am a " slap hitter who uses the entire park" In any event, I'll try to make the company more inspiring than my golf game

Peter

[John Kirk]

Peter,

Thanks for the wonderful invitation.  Unfortunately, I can't drop everything and fly east to join you.  See you out at Pumpkin Ridge next spring.

John

[ed_getka]

Peter,
   It is kind of you to extend an invitation, but my travels are over for the year. Hopefully we will cross paths in the coming year. Have a great time and I would love to hear what you thought of the course.

[Joel_Stewart]

Bring your "A" game, Wannamoisett will flat wear you out and there is not much let up.  I'm not sure how the rough is this time of year but in the summer you have to wedge it out sideways if you miss the fairway.

Its an architectural gem, built on only 90+ acres but you would never know it.

[JakaB]

Hold the presses....Why would the home of the Donald Ross Society have rough that robs the course of its architectural heritage.....Oh, and Peter....if you can find me a XXL shirt with the Wanna logo on the sleeve I will pay you 120% of its cost for your trouble...

[Brian_Gracely]

Peter,

Myopia on Tuesday and Wannamoisett on Thursday, that's a pretty good week.  What's on the agenda for Wednesday?

[Brian_Gracely]

Hold the presses....Why would the home of the Donald Ross Society have rough that robs the course of its architectural heritage.....Oh, and Peter....if you can find me a XXL shirt with the Wanna logo on the sleeve I will pay you 120% of its cost for your trouble...

Wampanoag CC, Wannamoisett CC.....they both begin with "W", what's the difference?

[Peter_Herreid]

Brian--

...perhaps a single malt, a comfortable chair, and an unobstructed view of a big-screen for Game 2 of the ALCS

If it evolves that way, the buzz in Boston might be unbearable!

Peter

[JakaB]

Brian...the third hole of Wanna is the logo for the DRS...that is home enough for me...

[Tripp_Davis]

Peter,

You will really enjoy Wannamoisett.  I play the Northeast Amateur there and it is an absolute joy to play.  Bring your A Game on the greens - these are the most severe greens we play on the AM Circut and they keep them at about 13 in late June for the tournament.  You have to work the ball off the tee to best position approach shots, which is critical to have any chance with the greens.  This is an example of a course that cannot be overpowered.

Tripp Davis

[GeoffreyC]

Trip

I have not yet had the pleasure of playing Wannamoisett but your statement "This is an example of a course that cannot be overpowered." is one of the most interesting things I've read on here in a long time.  If you could explain to us in some detail just why you think this is so then I think we can all learn a great lesson about golf course architecture

[Thomas_Brown]

I second the "can't overpower" sentiment.
I played in May 2004 and couldn't believe how my iron shots at the flag would get rejected by the slopes, crowns, ? on those greens.  Speaking for myself, it's not a course I will score many birdies on.

[DTaylor18]

Peter, the better question is, where will you be playing Monday?    And most importantly, will there be Herreid Blue?

[Dave_Miller]

To any interested GCA'ers:

I will be visiting Wannamoisett at 10am next Thursday, 10/ 14, and have the opportunity to bring another player with me.  I am very much looking forward to exploring this great old track, particularly in what may be close to peak foliage...

If you might be interested in joining me, please drop me an e-mail or an IM for more details.  In the interest of disclosure, I am a 13 HCP and, like our most famous Seattle Mariner Ichiro, I am a " slap hitter who uses the entire park" In any event, I'll try to make the company more inspiring than my golf game

Peter

Peter:
That's a great offer.  Wannamoissett is a wonderful golf course and less than an hour drive from my home.  Unfortunately I will be in San Francisco on Thursday or would love to join you.  Try Ed Baker.
Fairways and Greens,
Dave

[Tripp_Davis]

To Geoffrey Childs:

Sorry it took so long to respond.  

Wannamoisett is a course that cannot be overpowered because the interest in the greens require you, in order to play your best (whether that is good enough to win the Northeast Am or beat your handicap), to approach a specific pin from a specific spot in the fairway (when can change dramatically with a change in the pin).  It is a course that gives a player to get aggressive off the tee, but the margin for error is very small.  The longer player has no advantage on most every hole if they don't put the ball in a spot to get at the pins.  I am reasonably long off the tee for a Mid Am, but I could not use that as an advantage without being in the right spot in the fairway.  I could play the course, from a distance stand point, without hitting a driver on any hole, and only chose to do so when I felt there was an advantage to gain.  The greens cause all of this.  I think too many of our new courses don't do enough with the greens to make the player really, really, really think off the tee.  I think it goes to the test of "fairness" in greens and too often it is not considered appropriate to put a player in position to not get to a pin if they are in the fairway.  You should be in the right part of the fairway.  Wannamoissett requires that and as a result, length is only as important as how accurate you are, and the ability to get the right angle gets harder the closer you get to the greens.

[Paul Richards]

Peter:

Just played Wannamoisett.  What a treat!

You are going to love it.  It's a real testament to the genius of Donald Ross that he could create such a special routing and course over such a small tract of land.

Cheers!!

[ian]

Tripp,

I enjoyed what you had to say, and can't agree with you more. I also believe in the idea that green contour can overcome more than most architects realize. They are too in tune with facilitating fast greens and fair play, to realize the greatest weapon (as you have stated) against length is positioning "that matters" This is why while I questioned some of the sentiment in regards to Rustic Canyon, I always praise those greens for their amazing lesson that bold contour can dictate strategy back to the tee.

[GeoffreyC]

Trip

Thanks- I thought that was the answer you would give. As a follow up I think one could include Hidden Creek in the category of a course where the greens dictate the strategy back to the tee, however, Hidden Creek has more then ample width off the tee so that it is exceedingly forgiving in that regard though no one could deny that correct positioning is important.

Wannamoisett on the other hand is routed on an extremely small property.  It is supposed to be one of the great routings of Donald Ross yet I imagine it can't have anything like the width of a Hidden Creek. How did Ross build these strategies in positioning without the width? or am I mistaken?

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Peter -

I enjoyed meeting you and your crew!  Thanks for bringing this event to our attention!!

A great day on a spectacular course.  Hope that you played Wannamoisett well today!!!

All the best -

JWK

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wannamoisett is a course that cannot be overpowered because the interest in the greens require you, in order to play your best (whether that is good enough to win the Northeast Am or beat your handicap), to approach a specific pin from a specific spot in the fairway (when can change dramatically with a change in the pin).

I'd have to disagree with you.

I'd rather approach every green at Wannamoisset from 30 yards closer in the fairway then 30 yards back, but in what you claim is the ideal spot in the fairway.

Players hitting shorter clubs into a green always have an advantage.

Talented players who can shape the flight and trajectory of the ball have an even larger advantage.

Tiger Woods, when he made his record win at Augusta, a golf course noted for difficult greens, never hit more then a 7-iron into any green on a par 4.  Approaching with shorter, higher trajectory shots is always advantageous on firm, contoured or sloped greens.

In addition, the greens on the par 4's and par 5's at Wanamoiset aren't wildly contoured or sloped.  It's the speed that presents the problem, and the ability to get under the pin, which is made easier by shorter approaches.[/color]

It is a course that gives a player to get aggressive off the tee, but the margin for error is very small.  The longer player has no advantage on most every hole if they don't put the ball in a spot to get at the pins.

Again, I'd disagree, any ball a good distance up the fairway is going to present the golfer with an easier shot, which equates to an advantage to the longer player.[/color]

I am reasonably long off the tee for a Mid Am, but I could not use that as an advantage without being in the right spot in the fairway.  I could play the course, from a distance stand point, without hitting a driver on any hole, and only chose to do so when I felt there was an advantage to gain.  The greens cause all of this.  I think too many of our new courses don't do enough with the greens to make the player really, really, really think off the tee.

Which new courses ?

How does a green influence a players decision off the tee if he can't see the green, and is playing the golf course for the first, and possibly his only time ?

How does the green and hole location affect play off the tee when the hole is a dogleg and/or blind due to an intervening feature ?[/color]

I think it goes to the test of "fairness" in greens and too often it is not considered appropriate to put a player in position to not get to a pin if they are in the fairway.  You should be in the right part of the fairway.  Wannamoissett requires that and as a result, length is only as important as how accurate you are, and the ability to get the right angle gets harder the closer you get to the greens.

Could you name the holes that penalize a player for being on the wrong side of the fairway, purely from the green perspective, and not from any other intervening features, such as trees, etc., etc. ?[/color]

[Tripp_Davis]

Patrick,

Have you ever played Wannamoisett?  From your comment that the greens are not wildly contoured, I take it you have not.  Yes they are fast, but the slopes in many greens are severe - even so it is the direction of the slopes relative to shots you are playing that make the difference.  In most cases at Wannamoisett, it does not mater if you have 50 yards less, if you are not at the right angle.  For instance, on #7, you have to be on the right side when the pin is left and on the left when the pin is right - no question!  If you are on the wrong side 50 yards from the pin, you have less chance, of just getting it within 40 feet, than if you are 100 yards on the left.

Yes, being able to shape the ball is an advantage to the better player.  That is one of my big advantages at Wannamoisett.  However, that does not make up for being on the wrong angle, often and severely at Wannamoisett.

I guess I should have expounded on my thoughts about Wannamoisett a little more by saying that it is often the case that getting closer to the greens is either often of no benefit, or extremely hard to do.  For instance, on #5, you can almost drive the green, but then you are left with a shot that requires more precision (a bump and run up a severe, severe, false front to a top that runs away from you), than a shot from 100 yards you can put spin on.  On #9, you can hit driver (to a narrower part of the fairway), but if you do you have wedge or 9 iron hitting to small plateaus and cups that with those clubs you have to stick it, whereas with a 7 iron you can use the shaping you discuss to get to pins more easily by using the ground and run.  There are numerous examples there where getting closer to the green is not as much as an advantage.  Your statement that being closer to any green is an advantage is simply not true.  Consider #15 at Augusta - If you lay up short of that green at 65 yards, you have less chance to get a shot close than at 95 yards.  There are also many examples of holes where laying back, even to 150+ yards are better than being 100 yards less, so you can work the ball, spin is not as much of an issue or you have a better view.  #6 at Engineers Country Club on Long Island is an example where if you drive it closer to the green, you don't have a veiw of the green and you have a wedge from an uphill lie (which promotes spin) to a green that does not take spin - whereas if you lay back to 160 yards you have a view of the green and you are hitting a club that will not have as much or any spin to a green that is best approach by working shots into the green and letting them release to pins - which the green encourages.  

Are your opinions based on theory and your perceptions, or on your own experiences with playing courses such as Wannamoissett under the exacting conditions of tournament golf?  Not being critical, just wondering.

Difficult greens and greens that require you to be at the right angle are not the same thing.  Also, just getting it on the green is not really what I am talking about.  To be able to score well at Wannamoisett, you can't do so by making 30 footers all day with multiple breaks.

I am not in to naming course that I think are inferior.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Have you ever played Wannamoisett?  From your comment that the greens are not wildly contoured, I take it you have not.  

I've played Wannamoisett dozens of times[/color]

Yes they are fast, but the slopes in many greens are severe - even so it is the direction of the slopes relative to shots you are playing that make the difference.  In most cases at Wannamoisett, it does not mater if you have 50 yards less, if you are not at the right angle.  For instance, on #7, you have to be on the right side when the pin is left and on the left when the pin is right - no question!  If you are on the wrong side 50 yards from the pin, you have less chance, of just getting it within 40 feet, than if you are 100 yards on the left.

Predicating your theory on ONE hole, on a sand wedge versus a lob wedge isn't a very convincing argument.  Angles of attack are frequently rendered marginal, like the Maginot line, when booming drives and lob wedges are the implements used
to assault the hole.[/color]
 
Yes, being able to shape the ball is an advantage to the better player.  That is one of my big advantages at Wannamoisett.  However, that does not make up for being on the wrong angle, often and severely at Wannamoisett.
Being below the hole is by far, far more important at Wannamoisett, and that has less to do with angles of attack then club selection.  One only has to look at # 5, # 12 and
# 15 to see its value.[/color]

I guess I should have expounded on my thoughts about Wannamoisett a little more by saying that it is often the case that getting closer to the greens is either often of no benefit, or extremely hard to do.  For instance, on #5, you can almost drive the green, but then you are left with a shot that requires more precision (a bump and run up a severe, severe, false front to a top that runs away from you), than a shot from 100 yards you can put spin on.

Why would you want to put spin on a ball coming in to # 5 ?
Spin which can bring the ball back off a green that you describe as having a "severe, severe false front", leaving almost the same difficult recovery that you attribute to a drive that almost drives the green ?[/color]

On #9, you can hit driver (to a narrower part of the fairway), but if you do you have wedge or 9 iron hitting to small plateaus and cups that with those clubs you have to stick it, whereas with a 7 iron you can use the shaping you discuss to get to pins more easily by using the ground and run.
Again, your logic escapes me.
You say the 9th green has small plateaus, yet you maintain that you can get there more easily by using a 7-iron from a longer distance then using a wedge from a shorter distance.  That you can hit the 7-iron short of the green, using the ground game, but risking bunkers, to run it up to these plateaus.  I guarantee you that an aerial assault with a shorter club is the prefered method of attack to that green, irrespective of hole location.[/color]

There are numerous examples there where getting closer to the green is not as much as an advantage.  Your statement that being closer to any green is an advantage is simply not true.

Cite examples at Wanammoisett to support your contention.[/color]

Consider #15 at Augusta - If you lay up short of that green at 65 yards, you have less chance to get a shot close than at 95 yards.

Have you ever played Augusta ?
Would you cite one example, at Wanamoisett, where you play a shot, where the topography comes anywhere close to the topography at # 15 from the pond to 100 yards back ?[/color]


There are also many examples of holes where laying back, even to 150+ yards are better than being 100 yards less, so you can work the ball, spin is not as much of an issue or you have a better view.  #6 at Engineers Country Club on Long Island is an example where if you drive it closer to the green, you don't have a veiw of the green and you have a wedge from an uphill lie (which promotes spin) to a green that does not take spin - whereas if you lay back to 160 yards you have a view of the green and you are hitting a club that will not have as much or any spin to a green that is best approach by working shots into the green and letting them release to pins - which the green encourages.

Let's not deviate from the subject, this thread is about Wannamoisett, not other clubs.[/color]  

Are your opinions based on theory and your perceptions, or on your own experiences with playing courses such as Wannamoissett under the exacting conditions of tournament golf?  Not being critical, just wondering.

I'm familiar with competitive golf and the exacting conditions of tournament golf at the local, regional and national level.[/color]

Difficult greens and greens that require you to be at the right angle are not the same thing.  Also, just getting it on the green is not really what I am talking about.  To be able to score well at Wannamoisett, you can't do so by making 30 footers all day with multiple breaks.

Put me 50 yards closer to each green then your drive, and let's wager a few quid on the outcome. [/color]

I am not in to naming course that I think are inferior.
That's a cop out.  You can't make allegations and then, when questioned, fail to cite examples to support your position and statements.

I'm a big fan of Wannamoisett, but I don't see the critical relationship between throtling back to improve one's angle of attack with perhaps the exception of # 5, and at # 5, it's more about shaping the ball and not overcooking it through the fairway with your driver.  Let me hit each fairway 50 yards further then you or the field, and I'll take my chances with scoring on those greens, despite having become a poor putter[/color]

[Michael Moore]

Tripp Davis -

First let me congratulate you on playing the brutal ninth hole in one under par at this year's Northeast Amateur.

Many electrons have been spilled on this board regarding strategy, and it is extremely interesting to hear a real baller describe his approach to the game.

[Thomas_Brown]

IMO-#5, 7, 12 greens are the masterpieces at this course.
#3 deserves its herald.

I saw the greens under tame conditions - tournament conditions I have heard are borderline.

[michael j fay]

To put to rest the effect of longer distances at Wannamoisett one need look at the scores that have been shot in the more recent Northeast Amateur tournaments.

Until 1999 only one man broke par for four rounds, John Cook. Since 1999 this has happened three times. There was at one time the constant fear that some of the AMs could not reach some of the par four greens, now they are raching with mid and short irons.

Defense of par at the greens at Wannamoisett is strong. Holes 1,2,4,6,9,16 and 18 are all par four holes in the 435-475 range. The threes are 128, 190, 225 and 205. All of the greens suggest that Barnum wintered there and may have interred a pachyderm or two in the greensites.

While the course has become easier for the top ranked amateurs ( a lot has to do with the equipment) the average Joe 10 hanicap will be sternly challenged.