[tlavin]

Given the fact that the Ryder Cup is being staged at a venerable Donald Ross facility, I am surprised by the general lack of any buzz about the event, especially considering that competition is just days away.  I'm going for the Friday matches and would welcome some input on what I'm going to see in terms of the golf course.

[George Pazin]

You're right, Terry, Oakland Hills doesn't get much discussion on the site. Even during and after the Amateur a couple years ago, there wasn't much discussion.

From watching the Am on TV, the greens looked pretty darn interesting. I remember several guys hitting chip shots well away from the hole, and using the dramatic slopes and contours to bring the ball back to tap in range. Very cool.

Wonder how it played pre-monsterization.... Like or not, a seminal moment in US golf architecture. I personally think it set a negative precedent we still haven't gotten out of, but that's just my opinion.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Most of the buzz revolved around the Captain's picks after the PGA Championship.  After that, several Americans resigned to the lack of "firepower" on our team and the "boring" picks, conceding Europe's edge.

[Brian_Gracely]

Greens are outstanding and still very much Ross, as is most of the routing.  RTJ bunkers, pinching almost every fairway in the driving zone, make it somewhat repetitive.  Greens should be lighting fast and the rough very long with all the rain they got this year.  

#6, 15, 18 should all be interestig match-play holes. #9, 11 are great greens to watch because pin-placements can force the players to get REALLY creative if they're in the wrong spot with their approach.  

It'll be interesting to see if you can walk from the spectator drop-off on the North Course to any of the holes on that side.  Getting a close look at some of the greens (#4 or 5, Par3) will get you an idea of what's over on the South Course.

Try Buddy's Pizza at Maple (15 Mile Rd) and Lasher (small shopping center right near course) for lunch of dinner....best pizza in the state.  

Try Lincoln Hills (14 Mile and Evergreen....about 1 mile from OHCC) if you want to squeeze in 9 holes....you'll get around in about 75-90 minutes.

Jimmy Hoffa was last seen at the Machaus Red Fox (no longer there...new restaurant in that location) on Telegraph near Maple.

[Mike_Sweeney]

http://golfweek.com/articles/2004/pro/ryder/40407.asp

Here is Brad Klein's review. I think the USA will get smoked due to some similar problems as USA Basketball.

[Jeff_Mingay]

The most poignant line from Brad's article?

"There’s no need to lay waste to a classic track just to accommodate the occasional major."

[ForkaB]

The most poignant line from Brad's article?

"There’s no need to lay waste to a classic track just to accommodate the occasional major."

And yet......Brad gives it a 9.0 and his major slags of the course (the par 5's and the tree incursions) can hardly be RTJ's fault.  I can't see from that article what waste was laid and by whom.

Overall, I too am astounded by the lack of discussion of Oakland Hills on this site.  Doesn't anybody want to get their hands dirty, or just maybe, is the course perhaps as good as Brad's rating suggests, but nobody wants to admit it?

Just wondering......

[Gary_Nelson]

I'll be there Wednesday for the practice round and will try to post some opinions then.  From what I remember from the '96 Open, the greens are what makes this course.  The amateurs overpowered the course a couple years ago so I expect nothing different from the pros.

[A_Clay_Man]

I'd be curious to know how wide the corridors were, and how close the knee deep rough was to the fairways and greens back in '51? As I recall the recent Am, from TV the standard maintenance presentation seemed stifleing. Perhaps Dr. Klein saw beneath the presentation and mistakes of the rich?

Heres' the most interesting line from Brad's piece

It serves its membership well and presents a fine stage for match-play competition.

[tlavin]

The most poignant line from Brad's article?

"There’s no need to lay waste to a classic track just to accommodate the occasional major."

That is a great Brad Klein line.  I can speak from my experience at Olympia Fields last year on this issue.  We lengthened the course by 400 yards and moved bunkers out approximately four years before the championship.  By the time the pros arrived, technology had passed us bye and the players bombed the ball over almost all of the fairway bunkers.  They were largely irrelevant for the touring pros, but they continue to punish the regular members and their guests on a regular basis.  We made the bunkers huge and deep in an effort to affect scoring; all we wound up doing is affecting our collective state of mind.  Not that I'm really complaining, I think the reworking of the course (by Mark Mungeam) is quite excellent, it's just that we common slobs would have liked to see the pros suffer in the shoulder deep fairway bunkers during the Open.  The pro game has sadly become drive, pitch and putt on far too many formerly "long" par fours and par fives.

[johnk]

Length-wise, El Momo Azul has a lot of mid-400s yard par 4s that won't seem long to the pros, but would be brutal on low hcp amateurs.

It's possible that it will prove the point that you can't fight power with length - because it will play tough, but offer up enough chances for brilliant play.  It'll be good for match play.

In other words, it's a classic course that will stand up because it currently doesn't try to fight power with length.  Perhaps that will change by 2008...  

I wonder if anyone will notice that before then? -- No I don't.

[Brad Klein]

Jeff Mingay refers to my line as "poignant" but it's also quoted slightly out of context. I was referring to the club having hired Rees Jones and his preliminary efforts to get the place ready for the 2008 PGA. Having acknowledged that they could do some modest tinkering of bunkers and tees, I then said:

"But it would be Open Quackery to start moving greens around in the search for new yardage.

There's no need to lay waste to a classic track just to accommodate the occasional major."

As for the overall Ross/Joes stuff on Oakland Hills, it is now 50+ years since Jones' modernization. George Pazin is right (above) that it was a seminal moment in architecture. But as regrettable as that was in terms of fairway bunkering and strategic width, Jones left the basic routing and green sites as Ross had them, and by now, after 50 years, the course is Ross' routing with Jones' bunkers and I accept that and think it works fairly well, even if (as I note) it lost some strategy along the way and there are way too many trees.

I think it's important to prevent or blow the whistle on prospective mess ups (thus my comments about Open Quackery) but I don't think it's very productive to re-ignite old passions 50+ years after a major modernization. We all know what happened there. Besides, Oakland Hills-South is, as I note, a heck of a place and should not (now) be ruined.

[Jeff_Mingay]

It was clear to me, Brad, that you were referring to the recent hiring of Rees Jones. And, I still think that line is poignant... probably even more so quoted out of context!

It's certainly going to be interesting to see what Rees and the club decide to do. My feeling (based upon no real facts) is that Oakland Hills does not want to give up its "championship status", and thus some major changes will take place.  

[Brian_Gracely]

Anyone have an pictures or aerials of Oakland Hills South before the RTJ bunkering changes?

[Larry_Rodgers]

I have it from a very good source, Tiger Woods was in Dallas this past weekend and was working with Hank Haney.

We will all see this weekend if there is any improvement.  

[Jfaspen]

Just an FYI to those who are attending this week(end).  Security is pretty tight.  People are reporting a 1 hour time from when they park at the silverdome until they are shuttled to the course, pass through security and are admitted to the grounds.

Plan ahead.

Jeff

[George Pazin]

Brian -

I'm not certain, butI think there is a pre-RTJ aerial in Geoff Shackelford's The Golden Age of Golf Courses.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

After reading Dr. Klein's raters notebook article, I am sure that Oakland Hills remains a tremendous golf course.  

My only question revolves around his Integrity of Original Design number of '8'.  Clearly,Ross' original design has been compromised due to Jones rebunkering.  

In light of today's renovation/restoration movement should Oakland Hills be rated this highly after this extensive plastic surgery, albeit 50 years since the surgery?

[Brad Klein]

Cos, as I indicate above, what's now "original" after 50+ years is the Ross/Jones course, and besides, RTJ left the routing in tact plus the green sites and all major contours. Yes, he narrowed the fairway bunker patterns, but there's now an integrity to this that is not seen at many other courses of this joint vintage. It's certainly far more integrated and thematically unified than Oak Hill, Inverness, Medinah, Congressional, Augusta National

[Gary_Nelson]

Brad,

I was looking for those arborvitae yesterday and found them sticking out like a sore thumb on hole #7.

For those that didn't read it, here is the quote from Brad's Golf Week write-up:

"Landscape and tree management: 5
Wonderful, mature hardwoods, but too much clutter of spruce, pine and an unspeakable grove of arborvitae on the seventh hole."

Old aerial photos of the course show almost no trees when Ross designed it.  Would taking out ALL the trees make it a better course?  I like the trees from an asthetic viewpoint.  I have only played the course once so I can't say if removing them all would make the course better or worse.  What do you think?

[JSlonis]

Here's some buzz...

Apparently it has been reported that Hal Sutton has teamed up Tiger Woods & Phil Mickelson as partners in the first match of tomorrow.  I guess Hal means business.  This should really get the spectators going early tomorrow.

[Rick Shefchik]

There's another reason why the USA ought to be considered the underdogs. The first decision Sutton has (allegedly) made about pairings looks like a dumb one. Tiger can't find the fairway and Phil is trying to get comfortable with his new clubs. They can't help each other. There will also be the Palmer-Nicklaus effect here: these two guys are so competitive with each other that it will be tough for them to form an effective team.

Now watch them dust the Euros 6-5. But I can't see how Sutton really expects this pairing to mesh.

[JSlonis]

Rick,

Tiger and Phil are arguably two of the best four players in the world.  I think they'll figure out a way to play together.

I hope they just trounce whoever they play, so all the armchair critics can take the weekend off.

[Rick Shefchik]

Well, I just wanted to get a first guess out there, rather than be accused of second-guessing if I stated this opinion after they lost.

If I'm wrong -- and obviously I could be -- I''ll take the rest of the weekend off.

[JSlonis]

For Hal's, Tiger's and Phil's sake, I hope you're wrong too.

If not, they're going to be so sick and tired of answering what went wrong, they won't be able to see straight.

Either way, it makes for compelling viewing!!

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