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Robert Thompson

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Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« on: September 05, 2004, 02:08:08 PM »
The Cruden Bay thread got me thinking about the work of Tom Simpson.
Earlier this year I had the chance opportunity to tee it up at Kingsbarns with Walter Woods (former super at TOC) and Dr. David Malcolm, who is working on a biography of Tom Morris.
It is Malcolm's take that many of the great courses attributed to Morris were actually almost entirely redone by Simpson at varying points, whether the club's acknowledge it or not. He says written documentation from and to Morris shows that often he arrived at a "course" in the morning, staked it out and played it that afternoon (Dornoch is a case in point, Dr. Malcolm says.)
Anyway, Simpson did extensive work at Muirfield, Cruden Bay, Aberdeen, Lytham, Sunningdale and Ballybunion. Pretty impressive list, when you think about it. So why isn't Simpson generally listed among the greats? Clearly the courses he was involved are considered great....

Robert
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2004, 04:38:51 PM »
Robert,
We have been talking Simpson for years here. Where have you been? ;)

Actually, the only talk of Simpson is usually regarding the magnificent chapters both he and Wethered wrote and contributed in The Architectural Side of Golf.  

My opinion much more is not said about Simpson is because of the timing and the character of Simpson himself. He may have been a very eccentric if not bizarre character and it took H.W. Wethered to write those chapters to make it somewhat readible. Tom Simpson for the most part, sailed his own ship!

I also thnk many here just simply haven't read the book to see how this man not only knew how to draw and depict, but also how to design with nature.

He is definitely one of the Game's Unsung Heroes.

T_MacWood

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2004, 12:09:01 AM »
An excellent architect and a very colorful character...bordering on strange. Darwin seemed to be a big fan of Simpson.

I'm not sure about the theory he was responsible for redesigning most of Old Tom's courses, although I do agree Morris gets extra credit due to the efforts of several later architects--Colt, Simpson, Fowler, etc.

Simpson was very active on the continent of Europe and from what I gather his architectural mentor was John Low. His two favorite courses were Pine Valley and St.Andrews.

TEPaul

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2004, 05:15:32 AM »
Robert Thompson said:

"It is Malcolm's take that many of the great courses attributed to Morris were actually almost entirely redone by Simpson at varying points, whether the club's acknowledge it or not. He says written documentation from and to Morris shows that often he arrived at a "course" in the morning, staked it out and played it that afternoon (Dornoch is a case in point, Dr. Malcolm says.)
Anyway, Simpson did extensive work at Muirfield, Cruden Bay, Aberdeen, Lytham, Sunningdale and Ballybunion. Pretty impressive list, when you think about it. So why isn't Simpson generally listed among the greats? Clearly the courses he was involved are considered great...."

Robert;

If that is true that Simpson redid a number of Old Tom Morris's courses, that kind of thing is probably not at all unusual for courses that date back to Old Tom.

The reason an architect like Simpson may not get the credit he deserves in that case, is, in my opinion, because most everyone doesn't really make any distinction of who did what at courses like that. Old Tom obviously did "lay out" the course, as you mentioned, and if he did it in the manner you described above (in a day) he should probably just be credited with the basic original routing of the course.

What an architect such as Simpson may have done on courses like that is to come in later and add features to them, make them more interesting and perhaps great. I call something like that "designing up" a golf course that may have been fairly basic or even mundane.

Sometimes the "routing phase" and the "designing up" phase happen not exactly simultaneously which is true of a number of the very old courses. People either forget or never exactly realized who did what. And in most all cases of courses that evolved like this they really are so old that no plans exist of who did what primarily because no plans probably existed or were used in the first place.


Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2004, 06:31:21 AM »
I like the story that when Simpson went to Ballybunion to make modifications to it for the 1937 Irish Amateur Championship all he did was move three greens and add one bunker.  I've some experience of Simpson courses and they have all appealled to me greatly - lots of character, lots of individuality.  Personal favourites would include Co Louth and several in Belgium.  I've not been fortunate enough to get near Morfontaine.

T_MacWood

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2004, 08:27:02 AM »
Mark
There seems to be some debate regarding what exactly Simpson did at Ballybunion. Speeking of changes, it was claimed after Simpson retired, that he was the architect who had suffered more from changes to his original work than any other--his controversial work at Sunningdale-New and Rye were given as examples. Of course Colt had suffered from Simpson in both these cases prior to Simpson suffering.

One of his stranger theories: no course could be considered great without an out-of-bounds.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2004, 08:37:17 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2004, 09:36:15 AM »
Tom,

You prompted me to look out Ballybunion's Centenary History by John Redmond.  have you got it?  There's too much to type out here.  I could scan it and E-mail it to you if you would like.

TEPaul

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2004, 09:39:30 AM »
"Speeking of changes, it was claimed after Simpson retired, that he was the architect who had suffered more from changes to his original work than any other--his controversial work at Sunningdale-New and Rye were given as examples. Of course Colt had suffered from Simpson in both these cases prior to Simpson suffering."

Tom MacWood:

Older architects original work suffering changes from old architects, old architects original work suffering changes from newer architects! When did it all begin and when will it ever end Tom? Maybe it will end with the new era of some really good restorations! ;)


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2004, 09:50:25 AM »
Of course, Tom P.  Maybe Ballybunion should get right on restoring their links to pre-Simpson; I'm sure those three greens he moved would be better off back where they were.  And I'm sure Muirfield was MUCH better in Colt's day.

Tom M.:  What did Simpson do at Sunningdale?  I've never heard anything about that.

Andy Levett

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Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2004, 09:56:59 AM »
Does anyone know what Colt, Alison and Morrison meant when they referred in their  correspondence to a course being 'Simpsonised'?
The expression, clearly intended negatively but without any explanation, crops up in the letters in Colt & Co.  Was it just generalised mocking of  a professional rival or did it refer to particular architectural traits?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2004, 10:10:36 AM »
I forgot to say that I do think Tom Simpson was perhaps the original minimalist designer.

Some of his predecessors [Morris, Robertson] were minimalists because they had no means to change things much, but the other architects of Simpson's day [including Colt] had started to get golf course design down to a formula.  Simpson had a much more artistic view ... his green complexes were less complicated affairs, and his bunkering schemes were both unusual and less involved.

Tommy gives credit to H.N. Wethered for the better writing in The Architectural Side of Golf, but I think Simpson was a great writer, too.  Archie Baird gave me his consulting report for Muirfield and it is a masterpiece.

TEPaul

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2004, 10:28:07 AM »
"Of course, Tom P.  Maybe Ballybunion should get right on restoring their links to pre-Simpson; I'm sure those three greens he moved would be better off back where they were.  And I'm sure Muirfield was MUCH better in Colt's day."

TomD:

That's not what I'm saying at all but I guess I can see why you may think I am. Your remark may be better directed at Tom MacWood as he appears to be the one who seems to advocate that original architecture should never attempt improvement, and that's what I was responding to with that remark. Presumably that thought of his applies as much to yesteryear as it does today!

If I thought the way you think I might our recent restoration at Gulph Mills probably would've removed the 4-5 holes that Perry Maxwell redesigned and returned them to Ross. The point is those Maxwell holes are some of the best on the golf course even compared to Ross's originals that very much exist as they always have and the holes Maxwell redesigned seem much better for all than the ones Ross had in their place!

I believe in looking at golf holes specifically and individually and seeing if and why they have past what some call the "test of time". I'm not the one who thought of that, some of the best of the architects of the past did, and it seems to be as valid and honest a way of approaching architecture as can be found.

TEPaul

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2004, 10:31:15 AM »
"And I'm sure Muirfield was MUCH better in Colt's day."

TomD:

I don't know about that. I've only spent one day (but all day) at Muirfield but with one of their historians. But if you ask me #1 would be a better hole if the club restored Colt's fairway bunkering on it!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2004, 04:12:34 PM »
Quote
Tommy gives credit to H.N. Wethered for the better writing in The Architectural Side of Golf, but I think Simpson was a great writer, too.  Archie Baird gave me his consulting report for Muirfield and it is a masterpiece.

Tom D,
I was pretty much defending Simpson in the same verte' when discussing The Architectural Side of Golf with Daniel Wexler, for his write-up of the book for his newest efforts. Daniel pointed out to me that he didn't think so much of the last three or four chapters and in after re-reading them again, it certainly does seem like the subject matter changed not only quickly, but were less uniform--more quirky. I conversations with Tom Mac and others, I then found out about Simpson as a character, and that he was to say the less, very colorful, it just sort of made sense.

TEPaul

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2004, 07:18:19 PM »
"TE
No need to misrepresent what I believe; most regulars on this site know where I stand...God knows I've had to reiterate and clarify my opinions numerous times. But if it makes you feel better continue, I have feeling most ignore your negative comments...at least I hope they do."

Tom MacW:

Misrepresent what you believe? I said above you don't advocate any attempt to improve original architecture. Isn't that what you've been saying on here for a few weeks now? Or is it just that you don't advocating improving SOME original architecture? Whatever it is I surely doubt what I said about what you seem to be advocating is negative. And if you think me saying you don't advocate improving original architecture or some original architecture really is negative I suggest you try to grow a somewhat thicker skin. It seems like you now take everything I say to you both negatively and personally. I surely don't think the rest of the contributors to this site think the things I'm saying to you are negative--that's not my intent anyway.

This is a discussion group of differing views and clearly you and I don't agree on a number of things. I don't call that negative, I call it positive and continued discussion of the whys and hows of those disagreements or differences of opinion is what this website is all about. I think that's benefical and educational too.

I hope you don't think anyone on this website, surely including me, thinks you've somehow wrapped yourself in some veneer of research production or knowledge that it makes you or your views or statements on here are beyond criticism. I guarantee I'm never going to act that way to some of the things you say and believe. That's most of the fabric of this website---discussion of differences of opinon and even true disagreement is part of the deal on here.

Again, you appear to believe in architectural preservation, at least that's what you said a number of times. That seems to presuppose you don't believe then in any attempt to improve some architecture. That's your belief, correct? At least that's what you've seemed to somewhat sarcastically say to me whenever I mention the prospect of looking to improve some architecture. And how is it that when I mention you don't appear to endorse improvment of architecture or some of it you think that's misrepresenting you and being negative?

T_MacWood

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2004, 10:46:16 PM »
TD
In 1934 Simpson remodeled the New course at Sunningdale. Colt's original New course had four holes over very steep land (the seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth holes). The hilly land was used because the club wanted the Old and New to meet near the ginger-beer hut.

Simpson created four new holes (sixth, 7th, 8th and 9th) over new land and he also built at least ten new greens. The sixth featured a Principal's Nose 235 yards off the tee. The seventh was a par-3 (165 yards) modeled after the 2nd at Liphook. The 8th was long dogleg par-4 with natural pit left of the green. The 9th had 220 yard carry over heather; followed by an approach over a naturalistic burn (Simpson created from an old ditch) to a green modeled after the 12th at St.Andrews.

Simpson was defintiely known for his minimalism, and also his concern for the average guy, but the new New was evidently a bitch for everyone. I believe many of his controversial changes were eventually reversed.

I've got to believe the entire episode had to create bad blood between Simpson and Colt & Co....and most likely between Colt and Sunningdale. Seeing that Colt devoted much of his life and creative juices to Sunningdale.

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2004, 09:13:32 PM »
The current 13th at Muirfield is Simpson's.  Colt's was replaced in the 30s, it was never popular.  I have a nice copy of a painting of the Colt hole.  I think Simpson filled some bunkers and that single bunker before the 9th is supposed to be his idea.

I posted a pic of the 18th bunkers at Muirfield from the 20s...not revetted...the rugged look.

Simpson did have 4 holes at Sunn New, but they didn't last and Colt+Morrison rerouted the 4 as they are now.  There was some friction, from what I can work out.

I have found pics of 3 (7,8,9) of the original Colt holes...spectacular out on the open heath and yes probably quite hard walking.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2004, 09:20:13 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2004, 05:29:19 AM »
PaulT:

Have you ever seen and/or studied the Colt Muirfield drawings in the lockerroom? I tried to but there wasn't much time to do it and I'm pretty hazy at this point on the way he had it and the way it is now.

I do think Muirfield would do well to replace some of the Colt fairway bunkering on the 1st hole particularly that bunker in the middle of the fairway on the 1st---it couldn't help but make that hole more interesting.

Again, I only spent one day at Muirfield (two rounds) but I didn't feel the course really got going until the 3rd hole. The 2nd didn't seem like much to me----sort of what I sometimes call "European amorphous".

Many of those holes really do have true playablle interest for someone though. The way the 3rd squeezed in---the 6th is one of the best I've seen, particularly that fairway bunker left--its placement and the strategy it creates is super. The bunkering in the middle short of the fairway near the green on #8 is really good too and I believe our host said that's a recent addition. The 9th bunkering is great too---particularly that one you say may be Simpson---I think that bunker is named after someone's nose.

On the back nine I really like #17---awesome and unusual second shot bunker. #16 not bad either. But our host did talk about #13 and how it was just too severe a green---it sort of hung down diagonally and narrow off that hillock to its right I think. It was probably a par 3 that played somewhat like a par 3 would to the back left of the 1st green of Crystal Downs---eg really severe.

Paul_Turner

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Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2004, 11:37:21 AM »
Tom

I think I have a copy of that plan.  Not sure that it was drawn by Colt, but it was very soon after his work there.  

Don't agree about the 2nd.  I like that hole, particularly the green complex:  easy to lose the ball left, which was evident 2 years ago in the Open  Agree that the 1st could be more exciting.  There is a bunker that is fairly central  and short of the green on that hole...encourages the player to flirt with the bunker in the outside of the dogleg.

You are right about the Colt 13th.  It was in the same direction but to the right of the current hole.  It was similar in that it was a short 3 and up to a plateau green.  It survived an Open and an Amateur Championship, but playerd kept putting off the green into the front bunker and so it was deemed too harsh.  No doubt the Simpson hole is an improvement, because that hole is one of the best par 3s in the world.

10th and 11th are the most underrated holes at Muirfield, IMO.

I'd like to see some of the lesser known Simpson work like Deauville, Shirley Park.

I agree that he was likely the first pure "minimalist".  He never went nuts with bunkers, unlike Mack and Colt.

I've seen a great photo of the 1st green at Rye which Simpson designed.  It was banked into the right hand ridge and was strongly contoured...quite outlandish.  This didn't last long and is what Morrison is referring to (among other holes) when he wrote that Rye had been "de-Simpsonised"!  The 9th and 17th are Simpson holes at Rye.  And from memory, I think the 3rd green is to.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

TEPaul

Re:Tom Simpson, among the greats?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2004, 07:53:59 PM »
"Tom
I think I have a copy of that plan.  Not sure that it was drawn by Colt, but it was very soon after his work there."

Paul:

As I recall there were a couple of old drawings in the lockerroom. I think I recall one by Colt or certainly all about what Colt did. It had his name on it as I recall whether he put it on there or not I don't know. But that drawing seemed to comprehensively represent what Colt did there. There was a pot bunker right about in the middle of the drive zone on #1 and I think it would be a good thing if they put it back. Maybe you're right about the green on #2. As I recall I hit an approach shot close to the pin in the back so maybe I didn't notice the rest of the green enough.