[Bill_McBride]

I was just enjoying Ran's interview of Mark Stovall and the interesting discussion about Lookout Mountain.  I was really taken by the photo of the Short Hole with that deadly drop off to the right.  Big green, scary hole.  That got me to thinking about St Andrews and the Short Hole #8 there.

Other than potentially 3-putting if you can't hit a short iron straight, what is the big deal about the Short at St Andrews?  Eden / High #11 is wonderful, the best par 3 I've ever played (except maybe Redan at North Berwick, but that's another story).  But the Short just kind of sat there, actually a bit like #9 only a lot shorter.  

What is educational and inspirational about the St Andrews Short Hole?

[JNC Lyon]

From The Spirit of St. Andrews, by Alister Mackenzie:

   "A hole that at one time I despised was the 8th at St. Andrews. It is a huge, flat green and is guarded by one small solitary bunker. It appears absurdly simple, but so far from familiarity breeding contempt, it has precisely the opposite effect. On medal days, the flag is usually placed behind the bunker and it is surprisingly difficult to get near it.
   
   "A pitch over the bunker usually lands yards behind the hole. On the other hand, there is a ridge 100 yards from the tee on the right which runs diagonally towards the bunker. A well-played run up shot will climb this ridge, curl arond the bunker and lie dead at the hole, but unless the ball has sufficient topspin to climb this ridge it will turn off at right angles and be deeply buried in the bunker to the left."

[Brian_Gracely]

Is the appeal of "Short" simply that it's a short distance, to a very large green, hence accuracy is actually important although the odds of hitting the green are large, and surrounding deep bunkers or fall-off areas for a wayward shot?  I've seen pictures of a few "Short" holes that had a sunken, horseshoe-shaped depression in the center of the green (ie. Yeaman's Hall).  Is this a common trait or specific to only a few sites?  Is the hole always played downhill?

[A_Clay_Man]

Intriguing how simple works, idn't it?

Here, we have one. A flat one shotter with the only feature that confounds is the falloff on the leftside of the green. This said falloff, is in totality, less than 5 feet, too. Simple yet difficult. In the last two twilight leagues played on that nine, nobody won the closey. They did award the prizes to the person who won the previous one shotter hole that night. I felt it should be carried over until such time as someone gets close on that hole. But what do I know?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Brian,

There were quite a number of intriguing depressions on old courses in the UK but most have now gone or even been domed the other way simply because of automatic watering systems.  There were a few survivors at Painswick, I seem to recall.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

I'm not so sure that the "short" hole is derived from the 8th at St Andrews.  I believe the prototype of the "short" hole lies elsewhere.   Perhaps George Bahto can expound on this.

Most short holes that I"ve played have heavily contoured greens, such as the 6th at NGLA and the 11th at Westhampton, which place a premium on the accuracy of the approach shot, as well as pressure on recovery shots and putts that are the result of errant approach shots.

When looking at the "short" hole at St Andrews, perhaps you have to look at it, not as an isolated hole, but in the grand scheme of things.

[Doug Wright]

From George Bahto's Feature Interview #1 (1999):

"2. Please briefly describe the matched set of par-3 holes the pair typically designed into their courses.


In the order of their length, we will start with the so-called 'Short', a fairly generic par-3 common to many courses in the British Isles long before Macdonald began his quest for the better holes in Europe. The 'Short' specifically tests the skills of the short-iron game. Macdonald always felt there was room for improvement in a golf hole, so he (and later Raynor) surrounded his versions of this genre' with a sea of sand - elevating the green to make the target more dramatic and intimidating. These Shorts were nearly always drawn as a squarish looking green with a larger surrounding enclosure indicating sand bunkering. The bunkering details would then be developed during the construction phase. Short hole putting surfaces were generally much wider than deep, containing strong undulations befitting a shorter hole. A horseshoe feature with the open end facing the tee or a rounded dished depression were mainstays of design. Two of their finest examples can be found at the wild 6th at National and 10th at Chicago Golf Club (where two depressions are separated by a ridge). The origin of the Macdonald/Raynor Short was the 5th at Brancaster. He favored this particular version over the 8th at St. Andrews because the tee-box was higher and afforded a clearer view of the green. Shorts were generally constructed 135 to 145 yards long but often clubs incorrectly added back tees in a pointless effort to gain yardage on the scorecard."

Best,

[Marty Bonnar]

Mr McB,
I marshalled at the 8th for seven straight days at the 2000 Open. I started the week thinking - "This Hole is just TOO Bland", but after a while got to appreciate what the effects of wind and tide were having on the players options off the tee.

There's some really subtle mounding running into the green from the front (esp. the left side) which tends to give the unpredictable Linksy kick to timid shots and a really firm putting surface through which low-struck balls simply Fly!

There's also the element of blindness, depending on which tee is used, which brings another subtle aspect into play.

All in all, I feel it is a fair 'respite hole' after the rigours of 6 and 7 and, as a member of 'the Bland Trio' with 9 and 10, generally allows a breather before - dah, dah, dah, dah! - 11.

Of course, it's all rubbish compared to Cypress...

FBD.

[Evan_Green]

#11 at Camargo is one of the best Short holes I have seen. Really need to be precise there to make par or birdie and just because you hit the green is no guarantee of par. A really intimidating 140 yd hole. It really is very exciting to hit the tee shot on that one.

Also it is one that doesnt often get talked about.

[Bill_McBride]

Patrick, thanks for the insight that St Andrews' "short" is not the prototype for the MacDonald/Raynor "short" holes.  Makes sense.

[Bob_Huntley]

I must have played the 8th at the Old Course well over a hundred times, sometimes in the company of scratch players with imposing credentials. I have never seen an ace there and could count the birdies on both hands.

The shortest club I have used was a nine iron and the longest a four. If the pin was placed well toward the back of the green, it is there for the taking, but in its usual tournament position, up front, it becomes increasingly difficult to get close.  

[Bill_McBride]

Bob, I wasn't actually thinking so much about the difficulty of the hole as the "look," contrasting it to MacDonald/Raynor's short hole "look," which looks to be much more difficult.  I know #8 TOC is not as easy as it looks, I bogied it during an otherwise pretty good stretch!   What brought this to mind was the photo of the Short Hole at Lookout Mountain.

I guess this just points out for the millionth time how subtle the Old Course is.

[Tom_Doak]

The short hole at Royal West Norfolk which Macdonald admired was the fifth hole 100 years ago, but today it is the fourth.

C.B. never specifically said anywhere that he modeled his Short hole after that one, but in an early article about The Ideal Course he mentioned the Brancaster hole by name.

I have tried to play the 8th at St. Andrews as Dr. MacKenzie describes it, and it is exceedingly difficult to play the running shot into that little slot.  99% of today's golfers would have better luck just flying it on the green and two-putting from 50-75 feet.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

I wonder, was the green at St. Andrews' eighth so much harder more often, so many years ago that Dr. MacKenzie's terrestrial approach advice was very necessary on certain days (say, downwind in particular)?

I guess I'm wondering, why was he so keen on playing the eighth along the ground, in light of the fact it's a more difficult shot these days?

Was Dr. MacKenzie just an idealist (like so many of us!) who would prefer to see the game largely played along the ground?

[Sean Leary]

Bob,

I played in a foursome a month ago at the Old Course where three of us made birdie on 8, and two damn near went in for aces.  The caddies were shocked as none of them had ever seen three birdies in one group on that hole ever(and they were long time caddies). Also shocked that two of the three were 20+ handicappers. I'm trying to remember the pin location, and I think it was about 20 feet over the bunker.

On a side note, I had the round of my life going, as I birdied 8, 9, 10, and 14 to get it to 4 under before the inevitable train wreck triple 7 on the Road hole.....

[Gerry B]

and honorable mention has to go to:

Horseshoe  -Banks version of "Short" at Forsgate - as good a green complex as #10 at Chicago Golf Club IMHO
#12 at Shoreacres - not tough but a great setting

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