Was Ross just an average talent with one hell of a sales pitch...

[JakaB]

I'll give him that he was a decent little router...but we have recently discovered that his best green complexes are the result of maintenace and not design....his overall designs have not stood the test of time or the modern game with half the strength of his peers...Tillie and Flynn....and the Donald Ross Society that shills his work is basically a take care of their own society that has strength in numbers...see their poo pooing of the destruction of French Lick..   Take away the number of courses with influencial members....take away the books....take away Pinehurst #2 that defends because of greens that are not of his hand....take away all the this and that of history....and what do you have.   Wayne Stiles without the Raynor influence....just another average dead guy..

[Mike_Cirba]

There you go, John.

I knew you could do it.  

More importantly, how could a guy who spent all that time on the road keep things happy at home?   Relatedly, perhaps he kept a concubine in every port?  

But the most critical point which you've managed to completey ignore is this;  Were Donald Ross, Wilford Brimley, and Yoda from Star Wars all the same person??  

Judge for yourself.  

What type of illicit thoughts lie beneath that liltish hint of a Mona Lisian smile?

[JakaB]

Come on Mike,

In all seriousness what did Ross ever build that stands today couldn't have been built by any of his peers...I know his peers set a high standard for "average" but if he had only built 40 courses instead of 400 would any books even be written.....based on the number of members who might purchase making it economically unfeasable without a captive audience..

[Mike_Cirba]

John;

Do I sense that you're trying to engage in a serious, academic, rational discussion of Donald Ross's architecture, while I playfully attempt to take this thread into mysterious realms of the dark unknown?

Like I said, I've come back to Superman's "Bizarro World".  

I agree with your point in many respects.  But, your premise misses the fact that Ross was one of the chief pioneers of what is today known as strategic design.  A visit to Aronimink might clear you of the notion that he didn't design courses that could stand up to the modern game.    

[JakaB]

I agree with your point in many respects.  But, your premise misses the fact that Ross was one of the chief pioneers of what is today known as strategic design.
   

That I don't get at all....are you saying all the courses built before Ross were not of strategic design...you must be including the overseas ones too.....who fed you that line of crap...

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

I agree with many of your premises, too.

When Mike says Ross was a pioneer of strategic design, recall that prior to 1910 or so, there were very geometric designs of the penal school and he, and the Philly school preached angles, side and angled hazards vs cross bunkers, etc.

But, was he a pioneer or did he follow trends? After all, his book didn't come out until 1995, and others published similar ideas in the 1920-30's!

[Mike_Cirba]

No John...I'm not talking about overseas one's as well.

I'm talking about the first courses in this country, which were primarily penal, with strict geometric shaping, a multitude of cross, carry hazards (including stone walls and berms), and bore little relation to the courses overseas.

Men like Ross were responsible for transplanting strategic ideas from their homeland and while I agree with you that many of Ross's courses weren't much more than functionally sound courses designed to spread the game, his best work is as good as anything out there before or since.

[TEPaul]

John B;

You've got to understand that Donald Ross's architecture is very very subtle---perhaps the most nuancy and effective "seocnd shot" architect ever. Off the tee it's generally extremely democratic! Mostly it looks easy but doesn't really play that way, specifically the approach shots. More golfers have probably hit what they think are the right shots on his holes and wondered what could possibly have gone wrong than with any other architect. My own course is a completely perfect example of that. I've seen it happen there in Philly Ams, State ams and Philly and state Opens.

Donald Ross's architecture has more of that je ne sais quoi that basically nobody from the Midwest, and particularly from Ohio has ever been able to fathom. It's the type of architecture that's only for the very sophisticated, mostly meaning only people from the East Coast of the United States and a few others from here and there that've been taught by them!  

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff Brauer;

Our posts crossed in cyberspace.

Nice to see that you're drinking the same GCA Kool-Aid as I am!  

Seriously, I think John is only comparing Ross to what came after.  To truly understand his value, as you so smartly point out, one has to also consider what was here before him.  

[T_MacWood]

Oakley


Early Pinehurst #2


Here are two examples of early Ross...looking at these you might conclude he was average talent, but after enjoying Pinehurst #2, Oyster Harbors, Canton Brookside, Franklin Hills, Inverness, Broadmoor and Pine Needles I can't help but conclude he was a hell of a talent.

[JakaB]

Mike,

Was the work of Ross simply an inevitablilty or an evolution of style.....did Ross do for golf what Columbus did for fashion...just bring it over the seas and by the boatload I might add.  If all he did was bring over what was already being done in Europe was he more of a tradesman than a craftsman...

[Jeff_Brauer]

John B;

You've got to understand that Donald Ross's architecture is very very subtle---perhaps the most nuancy and effective "seocnd shot" architect ever.  

Donald Ross's architecture has more of that je ne sais quoi that basically nobody from the Midwest, and particularly from Ohio has ever been able to fathom. It's the type of architecture that's only for the very sophisticated, mostly meaning only people from the East Coast of the United States and a few others from here and there that've been taught by them!  

Here is where I side with John K - why is Ross nuancy at the green?  At Pinehurst, his greens are nuanced by the topdressing program of the 40's.  At other places, they are nuanced - as are other archies of the era - in the need to be below the pin!  That is not a result of any design philosophy.  Its a result of back to front sloped greens at 6-7% - typical then, and frightening today at modern speeds, no?

As I have said before, I looked at dozens of Ross plans at the Tufts archives.  The notes on the plans dealt strictly with mundane matters like getting fill here to move it there.  I did not see any notes referring to visual illusions (pinehurst 15) or even any of the "play arrows" that MacKenzie put on his green plans to depict possible shots.  

Out of 400 courses, Ross did several that were only meant to be good, functional courses.  His schedule and travel mode in those days couldn't possibly allow him to worry about nuancy greeens, because he was hardly there.

However, if we study his best, they stand up to anyones.  While Mac and Tillie had more limited, but higher quality portfolios, as they did a few dozen top flight courses and little else, Ross seems to have had a broader spectrum of jobs.  It appears to me that he took several jobs just to keep feeding the machine!

None of this is "tolerated" with todays big names, and we all assume it detracts from the product. How could it have been different with Ross?

[Mike_Cirba]

Interesting dolomites, Tom MacWood...looks something like the Church Pew concept on speed.  "Hey Jack, your ball is in row 3, seat number 5"

John;

Was Ross an innovator or just copying what he'd learned at Dornoch, etc.?  That's a good question and I think the answer is somewhere in the middle.  Certainly he brought a solid basis of understanding with him.  Artist or craftsman?  

Hmmm...I'll think more on it.

Ok..I'm done.  

I'm thinking of Plainfield, John, and one thing Ross did better than most is utilize the existing topography in delightfully creative ways.  I'm not just talking about a sound routing...I'm talking about knowing just where to place a green, often where the tilt of a hillside had just begun to sway back in the other direction.  It's tough to put into words without showing visual examples, but he has that certain touch of inspiration that's difficult to accurately describe.

[michael j fay]

John:

The actual number of Donald Ross designs is somewhere between 400 and 415.

Golf is played on approximately 375 of those courses today. They have been modified, renovated, restored etc. etc. but in many places the greens have gone untouched.

Wannamoisett: Home of the Northeast Amateur since 1960. I believe that par has been broken only a few times in this 72 hole medal play event.

Salem- 2001 Senior Open
Pinehurst # 2: Open 1999 and 2005
Oakland Hills: Ryder Cup
Orchards: 2004 US Womens Open
Oak Hill: 2003 PGA Championship


 Over 130 USGA Tournaments  have been layed on Donald Ross golf courses, including US Opens at Brae Burn, Inverness, Skokie, Oakland Hills, Worcester CC, Scioto CC, Interlachen , Oak Hill, Congretioal and Pinehurst.

Donald Ross was a very efficient and industrious individual. He was the first of the Architects that had a major golf course building force, Donald Ross Associates. At times DJR & Assoc. employed upwards to 8,000 employees building 26 coursse at once.

Mr. Ross was an exceptional talent in strategy, bunkering and green building. A great number of his greens survive today  and though the courses have been unbunkered, rebunkered etc. etc. Ross is still ahead of the curve with his greens.

[JakaB]

Michael,

Would you say of all modern architects Ross inc. most resembles that of Nicklaus design...give me 30 years and I can site the same statistics on courses designed by JN...if he doesn't come up short on an Open or two that is..

[T_MacWood]

JK
Has Nicklaus made a career of building affordable courses throughout the country?

There are little nine hole Ross courses (and full 18's) scattered all over Ohio in small towns like Lancaster, Tiffin, Delaware, Springfield, Granville, Portsmouth, Mansfield, Athens and Piqua.

Lancaster, Granville, Mansfield and Springfield are particularly strong. He brought excellent golf architecture to the small town guy.

Consistency was one of Ross's greatest strengths. Perhaps not as many highs as some other architects (he oftened missed out on the prime site or budget...maybe he wasn't actually that good of a salesman).

On the other hand very few lows (or disasters) and a ton of very good to excellent golf courses. My impression he was one of the best architects on a limited budget...which doesn't bring Nicklaus to mind.

[paul cowley]

....i would suggest that donald ross was much closer to henry ford and the affordable , better , mass produced  'model t' , than nicklaus designs product...

[Rick Shefchik]

I think Tom MacWood makes a good point about locations. Aong with Pinehurst, the Ross course most often cited as his best work is Seminole -- just about the only course on the ocean in southern Florida (I may be missing some here, but having driven A1A from Key West to Daytona, I don't remember seeing other oceanside courses.)

Seminole is supposedly about angles and superb use of the prevailing winds. Maybe other architects of the time would have done as well or better with the site, but the point is, when given a unique and precious piece of oceanfront property, Ross designed a classic. I think the evidence suggests he was good enough to make the most -- or nearly the most, anyway -- of what he was given to work with. How much more can you ask of any craftsman?

[Joe Hancock]

Off Topic, but I have to say this:

For all you Barney Bashers out there, I submit that very few others that post here are as clever at making the important elements of architects/ architecture come to light.

John, in your own way you are a master at making a point, even if it means the answer enters from the third door down on the left.

And for all of you that are wonderful historians....Thank You. The rest of us learn about the true Ross, MacKenzie, MacDonald, et al because of the hours of study you have put in.

The efforts don't go unnoticed, and this may be the most serious post I have ever written!

Joe

[TEPaul]

In checking in Brad Klein's section on Pinehurst in his Ross book it certainly doesn't seem obvious to me that young Donald Ross designed or even had anything to do with those geometric chocolate drop mounds shown in that early Pinehurst photo posted by Tom MacWood. It somehow seems more logical to assume they may have been done by someone like Pinehurst superintendent of courses Frank Maples before Ross first arrived in Pinehurst from Mass. As Brad Klein mentions, no golf architectural plans or drawing survived this early Pinehurst period probably because there never were any. Maybe Ross created them, or maybe Maples or someone else did. But the point is there seems to be no proof at all that Donald Ross did.

[rgkeller]

There are many of the ancient masters that are overrated - their modern day reputations being supported by the fragile thread of green complexes that are being maintained at stimps never comtemplated by the master.

But clearly, Ross is the most overrated of them all. Even the present day Seminole and Number Two owe much of their deserved reputations to the work of others.

The Ross "subtlety" is the last refuge of his defenders who demand that one must play his designs many times to understand his genius - secure in the knowledge that enough invitations to the clubs in question will never be offered.

[T_MacWood]

Rg
Who other than Ross deserves credit at #2?

As far as Seminole is concerned how much credit Wilson deserves is debatable...comparatively I don't think Wilson deserves much.

[TEPaul]

"Even the present day Seminole......owe much of their deserved reputations to the work of others."

It's easy to just throw out remarks like that rg, but I'd sure like to see you try to prove that!

[Brian_Gracely]

Did anybody do a better job of routing a course than Ross, especially considering the walkability, use of existing land (not moving alot of dirt) and drainage?  

btw - by many accounts, Seminole was not a great piece of land but rather a great location (draingage issues).  Ross was apparently the only one that didn't propose the movement of huge amounts of land and was able to preserve the two dunes within the property.  

[TEPaul]

"At other places, they are nuanced - as are other archies of the era - in the need to be below the pin!  That is not a result of any design philosophy.  Its a result of back to front sloped greens at 6-7% - typical then, and frightening today at modern speeds, no?"

JeffB;

Ah, the simple and super effective sloped green, back to front, whatever!! What a great and straightforward and effective design philosophy! I wish more modern architects would use it again as effectively as Ross did so often.

Brian:

Personally I think Williiam Flynn was a better router. To me there's somewhat of a formula, or let's say sort of an identifiable modus operandi to most all the Ross courses I know (high tees, valleys, high greens as predominantly as he could find on any site). As for tight greens to tees (walkability) I doubt anyone did a better job than Crump. If he'd lived every tee would have been less than 20 or so yards from the previous green!